Toronto

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Re: Toronto

Post by tigerfeat » 22 Jul 2020, 16:35

You can't let a team do what Toronto have done it will set a very dangerous precedent
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Re: Toronto

Post by casjunction » 22 Jul 2020, 18:51

Rather harsh to suggest punishment of Toronto is akin to being a luddite.
Forget the ongoing visa issues.
Forget that they appear to have had cash flow problems in tge pasted.

Forget they are unable to play at home early in the season.
Forget the prohibitive cost of teams travel whether it be Toronto or their opposition.
They gave assurances allegedly that they were able to fulfil their fixtures, then hours later when the fixtures are announced they pull the plug.
Any future assurance would have little credibility.
Once bitten.
Just an opinion.
No flat caps here!

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Re: Toronto

Post by tigerfeat » 22 Jul 2020, 19:29

lurcher wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 12:31 aren't they supposed to have signed richie myler, stevie ward, ryan hall, and ben flower for next season. what happens to them?
Myler Ward and Flower are being offered to other super league clubs according to Total RL what a bloody mess
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Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » 22 Jul 2020, 23:23

Flat Capper wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 16:26 Whilst I believe that the technical report from Hudds is close to accurate, failing to fulfil fixtures must surely be a breach of SL operating rules and therefore, the SL should be able to strake action against Toronto, even kicking them out.

It is a breach of RFL Operating Rules. But they aren't a full member of the RFL, only an affiliate member. Which makes this situation unprecedented and unique and more complicated. Not sure if affiliate members are covered by the Operational Rules or not.

If they are, SL in reality should have no power. It should go to the RFL for disciplinary action through the Compliance Manager.

It is a complete farce that SL clubs get to vote on this. Complete farce in terms of processes too.
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Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » 22 Jul 2020, 23:26

lurcher wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 16:35
HuddsTigers wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 15:02
westerbeast73 wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 14:45 Yes but lots of players have stated they are not getting paid and have not for a while ??
Toronto said they have been paid and it was only this month's payment that was late (due to be paid 1st July).

Players being paid late rather than not at all. Admin needs sorting out. Think they will use this period as way of sorting out the kinks (or that is how I've read the comments of the last few days from Argyle and Hunter)
its only a couple of days ago that mrs watkins was complaining no one had been paid since may.

The image I saw with her never mentioned not being paid from May, just that they couldn't pay on time. Not sure if you have seen something else?
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Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » 22 Jul 2020, 23:31

casjunction wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 18:51 Rather harsh to suggest punishment of Toronto is akin to being a luddite.
Forget the ongoing visa issues.
Forget that they appear to have had cash flow problems in tge pasted.

Forget they are unable to play at home early in the season.
Forget the prohibitive cost of teams travel whether it be Toronto or their opposition.
They gave assurances allegedly that they were able to fulfil their fixtures, then hours later when the fixtures are announced they pull the plug.
Any future assurance would have little credibility.
Once bitten.
Just an opinion.
No flat caps here!
I never said no punishment, it was more the "kick them out" attitude without considering mitigation of:

a) global pandemic
B) no home games, meaning no sponsors, no fans, no revenue
C) no access to a furlough scheme 10 clubs have had access to
D) a government loan that 10 clubs will have access to
E) No TV income (that all clubs benefit from including Toronto's share)
F) Increased costs from having to be based in this country permanently and hiring venues to train and stay in

That is alongside the fact that they wouldn't have gone down anyway this season.

I believe that they should be punished but only a points penalty for next season. That hands an advantage to the other clubs in terms of relegation and offers some compromise without losing out on the many benefits that keeping Toronto will provide as we head into TV deal year.
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Re: Toronto

Post by lurcher » 22 Jul 2020, 23:48

HuddsTigers wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 23:26
lurcher wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 16:35
HuddsTigers wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 15:02
westerbeast73 wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 14:45 Yes but lots of players have stated they are not getting paid and have not for a while ??
Toronto said they have been paid and it was only this month's payment that was late (due to be paid 1st July).

Players being paid late rather than not at all. Admin needs sorting out. Think they will use this period as way of sorting out the kinks (or that is how I've read the comments of the last few days from Argyle and Hunter)
its only a couple of days ago that mrs watkins was complaining no one had been paid since may.

The image I saw with her never mentioned not being paid from May, just that they couldn't pay on time. Not sure if you have seen something else?
my lad sent me the link, there wasn't any image just a lot of very angry tweets with some of the other toronto players wives joining in. i know from comments on other social media that others have seen it. actually saying they have bills to pay but have no money.
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Re: Toronto

Post by Mysterio » 23 Jul 2020, 01:54

Worrying times for our sport in lots of ways.

It's heartbreaking to watch. Id rather not know any of this. 🥺
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Re: Toronto

Post by Fevtiger » 23 Jul 2020, 04:55

HuddsTigers wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 23:31
casjunction wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 18:51 Rather harsh to suggest punishment of Toronto is akin to being a luddite.
Forget the ongoing visa issues.
Forget that they appear to have had cash flow problems in tge pasted.

Forget they are unable to play at home early in the season.
Forget the prohibitive cost of teams travel whether it be Toronto or their opposition.
They gave assurances allegedly that they were able to fulfil their fixtures, then hours later when the fixtures are announced they pull the plug.
Any future assurance would have little credibility.
Once bitten.
Just an opinion.
No flat caps here!
I never said no punishment, it was more the "kick them out" attitude without considering mitigation of:

a) global pandemic
B) no home games, meaning no sponsors, no fans, no revenue
C) no access to a furlough scheme 10 clubs have had access to
D) a government loan that 10 clubs will have access to
E) No TV income (that all clubs benefit from including Toronto's share)
F) Increased costs from having to be based in this country permanently and hiring venues to train and stay in

That is alongside the fact that they wouldn't have gone down anyway this season.

I believe that they should be punished but only a points penalty for next season. That hands an advantage to the other clubs in terms of relegation and offers some compromise without losing out on the many benefits that keeping Toronto will provide as we head into TV deal year.
They should be gone they carnt just fold halfway through a season and expect to be back in comp next yr no other sport would allow it and they only folded once theres an announcement of no relegation why haven't they done like Catalan and got there own TV deal 4 August and if they could get crowds in which I still dont think will happen at best the grand final but theres only 5 games in October and if they are its gonna be minimal Wigan athletic just been relegated because they went in to administration and got 12 deduction Toronto have just packed in halfway through season and expect to be in league next yr

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Re: Toronto

Post by Piquad1 » 23 Jul 2020, 06:39

Interesting reading I won't comment because I'm not as clued up as much as people on here. But it's a strange scenario and makes our game look amateurish. Christ as though things aren't bad enough. Just read that London and Featherstone have offered to jump into the breach. Sounds feasable but don't really know how the rfl will view this probably throw a spanner in work's they normally do. If they are considering the offer I personally would let London jump in.

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Re: Toronto

Post by tigerfeat » 23 Jul 2020, 08:25

I agree fella makes sense to me have your furthest away game 187 miles away rarther than 3,440
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Re: Toronto

Post by tigerfeat » 23 Jul 2020, 09:04

I forgot Catalans yeah
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Re: Toronto

Post by SWISS TONY!! » 23 Jul 2020, 09:16

(
HuddsTigers wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 23:31
casjunction wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 18:51 Rather harsh to suggest punishment of Toronto is akin to being a luddite.
Forget the ongoing visa issues.
Forget that they appear to have had cash flow problems in tge pasted.

Forget they are unable to play at home early in the season.
Forget the prohibitive cost of teams travel whether it be Toronto or their opposition.
They gave assurances allegedly that they were able to fulfil their fixtures, then hours later when the fixtures are announced they pull the plug.
Any future assurance would have little credibility.
Once bitten.
Just an opinion.
No flat caps here!
I never said no punishment, it was more the "kick them out" attitude without considering mitigation of:

a) global pandemic
B) no home games, meaning no sponsors, no fans, no revenue
C) no access to a furlough scheme 10 clubs have had access to
D) a government loan that 10 clubs will have access to
E) No TV income (that all clubs benefit from including Toronto's share)
F) Increased costs from having to be based in this country permanently and hiring venues to train and stay in

That is alongside the fact that they wouldn't have gone down anyway this season.

I believe that they should be punished but only a points penalty for next season. That hands an advantage to the other clubs in terms of relegation and offers some compromise without losing out on the many benefits that keeping Toronto will provide as we head into TV deal year.
That's an interesting statement. They've lost all their games so why wouldnt they be relegated this season? Were you expecting them to suddenly start winning enough to beat the drop or were you expecting the league to be extended club wise?
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Re: Toronto

Post by casjunction » 23 Jul 2020, 10:00

I assume the statement on relegation relates to the more recent statement scrapping promotion and relegation shortly after that announcement Toronto announced their withdrawal from this years competition.
Despite HTs arguments on parochialism.
They should be relegated.
They may have valid reasons as to why they are in such a perilous state.
But they made some of those rods themselves.
Do we change the rules just because of the potential money that could come into the sport.
It leaves a total lack of integrity
The issue now is what happens to the rest of an already truncated season.

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Re: Toronto

Post by Mysterio » 23 Jul 2020, 10:17

Can we have a summary of what they’ve actually done or not done (Toronto) please. I’m lost.
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Re: Toronto

Post by Piquad1 » 23 Jul 2020, 10:35

Follow the light Mysterio. Lol

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Re: Toronto

Post by tigerfeat » 23 Jul 2020, 10:42

Mysterio wrote: 23 Jul 2020, 10:17 Can we have a summary of what they’ve actually done or not done (Toronto) please. I’m lost.
They made cast iron assurances on a whole load of things with SL and the RL before they were allowed into super league
Including not receiving any sky money and paying for clubs air fare and hotels from day one they started to want to move the goal posts to suit themselves including wanting a bigger salary cap
But the real issue for me is 48 hours after saying they were ready to go for the re-start they pulled out leaving there players and SL and the RL in a mess
If there allowed to remain in SL there's every chance in my mind if things arnt going well for them they could pull the plug again in 2021 leaving the RL looking more stupid ...if that's possible
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Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » 23 Jul 2020, 15:52

Fevtiger wrote: 23 Jul 2020, 04:55
HuddsTigers wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 23:31
casjunction wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 18:51 Rather harsh to suggest punishment of Toronto is akin to being a luddite.
Forget the ongoing visa issues.
Forget that they appear to have had cash flow problems in tge pasted.

Forget they are unable to play at home early in the season.
Forget the prohibitive cost of teams travel whether it be Toronto or their opposition.
They gave assurances allegedly that they were able to fulfil their fixtures, then hours later when the fixtures are announced they pull the plug.
Any future assurance would have little credibility.
Once bitten.
Just an opinion.
No flat caps here!
I never said no punishment, it was more the "kick them out" attitude without considering mitigation of:

a) global pandemic
B) no home games, meaning no sponsors, no fans, no revenue
C) no access to a furlough scheme 10 clubs have had access to
D) a government loan that 10 clubs will have access to
E) No TV income (that all clubs benefit from including Toronto's share)
F) Increased costs from having to be based in this country permanently and hiring venues to train and stay in

That is alongside the fact that they wouldn't have gone down anyway this season.

I believe that they should be punished but only a points penalty for next season. That hands an advantage to the other clubs in terms of relegation and offers some compromise without losing out on the many benefits that keeping Toronto will provide as we head into TV deal year.
They should be gone they carnt just fold halfway through a season and expect to be back in comp next yr no other sport would allow it and they only folded once theres an announcement of no relegation why haven't they done like Catalan and got there own TV deal 4 August and if they could get crowds in which I still dont think will happen at best the grand final but theres only 5 games in October and if they are its gonna be minimal Wigan athletic just been relegated because they went in to administration and got 12 deduction Toronto have just packed in halfway through season and expect to be in league next yr
They haven't folded. They are still a business and still operating. They are not in administration or gone bust; that is the key differential.

They just can't afford to play and I don't see the same level of angst against Championship and League 1 clubs in the same boat of having high costs and little back with no fans and having to pay wages from bringing back players off furlough.

Relegation was going to be off the table anyway. Legally all clubs would have had a case to not be relegated due to the material change in circumstances.

Catalans haven't got a TV deal. French TV are agreeing to show all the games in the UK, which Sky are paying for. Catalans haven't had a TV deal all year.
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Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » 23 Jul 2020, 15:55

SWISS TONY!! wrote: 23 Jul 2020, 09:16 (
HuddsTigers wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 23:31
casjunction wrote: 22 Jul 2020, 18:51 Rather harsh to suggest punishment of Toronto is akin to being a luddite.
Forget the ongoing visa issues.
Forget that they appear to have had cash flow problems in tge pasted.

Forget they are unable to play at home early in the season.
Forget the prohibitive cost of teams travel whether it be Toronto or their opposition.
They gave assurances allegedly that they were able to fulfil their fixtures, then hours later when the fixtures are announced they pull the plug.
Any future assurance would have little credibility.
Once bitten.
Just an opinion.
No flat caps here!
I never said no punishment, it was more the "kick them out" attitude without considering mitigation of:

a) global pandemic
B) no home games, meaning no sponsors, no fans, no revenue
C) no access to a furlough scheme 10 clubs have had access to
D) a government loan that 10 clubs will have access to
E) No TV income (that all clubs benefit from including Toronto's share)
F) Increased costs from having to be based in this country permanently and hiring venues to train and stay in

That is alongside the fact that they wouldn't have gone down anyway this season.

I believe that they should be punished but only a points penalty for next season. That hands an advantage to the other clubs in terms of relegation and offers some compromise without losing out on the many benefits that keeping Toronto will provide as we head into TV deal year.
That's an interesting statement. They've lost all their games so why wouldnt they be relegated this season? Were you expecting them to suddenly start winning enough to beat the drop or were you expecting the league to be extended club wise?
As per my above post, promotion and relegation was going to be taken off the table this season due to Coronavirus and the changes in the format, rules and inability to play at home games. It is a significant change of circumstances that would have meant clubs having an unfair disadvantage.

As such, it was going to be taken off the table irrespective.
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Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » 23 Jul 2020, 16:07

Mysterio wrote: 23 Jul 2020, 10:17 Can we have a summary of what they’ve actually done or not done (Toronto) please. I’m lost.
The main point is that they have decided that they can't play this season due to the financial costs of having to play the entire season in the UK. This is despite assurances that they could play up until mid-last week. As per the above, the reason behind this is that it isn't sustainable for them to play with the accommodation costs, hiring of venues and facilities to play in this country, as well as testing etc without any help or home games (for the reasons I mentioned above about what UK clubs have access to). Super League clubs are also alleged to have refused a £200k loan to them to help them get through it (which is amusing since they have agreed a prize fund for a meaningless comp for the Champ and L1 clubs of £250k).

The other bits and pieces that people seem to be getting mixed up on is that they have delayed on payment of wages to players (which is their problem to sort and is nothing to do with the above barring the expense factor). They are not in admin/gone bust, much as others above seem to be thinking and confused over.

Reality is that it is no different to other teams in Championship and League 1 who don't want to play due to financial situations with Covid.

They have also had a visa issue with overseas players who have to come across here on holiday visas due to being a Canadian company. This allows players to stay in this country six months of the year max. In a normal season, this wouldn't be a problem due to playing games back in Toronto.

However, due to lockdown and lack of flights plus uncertainty of the season restarting, their players have stayed to the point their visas were coming up to expiry and they would have to return out the country. There is a bit of difference with Toronto saying it has been an issue for years and no one has done anything from SLE/RFL and it came to a head. This was apparently resolved.

Timing wise is the issue and not being able to fulfil fixtures is a breaking of the rules. But outside of that, the other issues are red tape or internal matters for them to sort.

They seem to be offering players the chance to leave for the season. They have already suggested SBW will be back for next year when they can play.

This latter bit is the area I'm sceptical about. It strikes me of them trying to clear cap space since we know how they have struggled for squad depth due to historic contracts.
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