Toronto

Super League, National Leagues and the NRL
HuddsTigers
Verified
Grand Final Winner
Grand Final Winner
Posts: 15893
Joined: 31 Jan 2009, 03:55
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » 08 Oct 2019, 12:55

To defend the RFL slightly, it wasn't them that failed with Crusaders - it was the owners pulling the plug financially after just a few years. They were getting decent crowds before then and even brought a good following to Cas. Required heavy investment, as do all start-up clubs in a new area and time.

Which is why the Toronto adventure is slightly different. Clearly they're happy to fund the investment (something like £14m has been invested already) to build this up.

Bradford failed down to their owners. There's no way a club with 10,000+ fans should be getting into financial trouble or be unsustainable.

Gateshead/Newcastle is clearly a strong area to pursue and Newcastle Thunder have good owners in Newcastle Falcons to be able to have natural growth. The historical Gateshead side, it could be argued, bailed out Hull FC, which set it back a good few years.

Sheffield is a footballing city, same with London. The only way these teams will see any kind of growth potential is through huge investment and success.

The only way that can be done is by giving them a leg up, which as we've seen from this thread, some rugby league fans are against any expansion and/or differentiation of the rules to support these sides. The RFL also doesn't have the resources to underwrite the costs.

Not too sure on the dynamics of what the NRL did for Melbourne Storm but my understanding is that they had a higher salary cap and possibly even got funded by the other NRL clubs.

Could you imagine 11 other Super League clubs taking a stake in say Newcastle Thunder and allowing them a higher salary cap? No, me either.
In the spirit of the final Blackadder episode - Goooodbyeee!

HuddsTigers
Verified
Grand Final Winner
Grand Final Winner
Posts: 15893
Joined: 31 Jan 2009, 03:55
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » 08 Oct 2019, 13:31

Flat Capper wrote: 07 Oct 2019, 13:53
HuddsTigers wrote: 07 Oct 2019, 12:53...People are fearful because it's the small clubs that are being threatened and rightly so. They've had it cush for too long. This is why Cas need to be forward-thinking, outward-looking and sort out their promotion and attraction to fans and deliver on the field. If we don't want to be replaced then we have to lead, not expect it to be given to us.
Whilst I don't disagree with your principals in theory, the scale of the problem is a simple as this:-

Toronto - population 6 million+
Castleford - population 45k(ish)

However successful we may be, the fact remains that we will never attract more than 12-15k at best and that does not compete with the potential for 3 or 4 times that. From that, the powers that be have to decide what they want for the game and if it's a world product, Cas Tigers will become the equivalent of a non-league football team no matter how the club promotes itself.

Alternatively, the RFL could see the game as a more successful brand than it currently is but embracing its heritage whilst expanding to places like Coventry. Offering the right level of support for development clubs over here, targeting the Midlands and the South-West. Looking to establish clubs with a potential 20k fan base that doesn't take it beyond the potential level of the heart lands.
True but given that I'm sure Toronto has many different areas to it outside of the metropolitan centre, we shouldn't just view Cas as Castleford either but widen out our population and target audience beyond there. We have no club eastwards or northwards within 30 miles (Hull/York nearest ones). To the South, Doncaster is the nearest one.

We're also the premier team in Wakefield so we should be doing all we can to cover all of these areas to attract fans. Castleford will always be our identity but our fans don't just exist in Cas. The question is how can we attract people to our identity at all? An attractive team should be playing 10k and IF the new stadium happens, that has to be the catalyst for ambition.
In the spirit of the final Blackadder episode - Goooodbyeee!

HuddsTigers
Verified
Grand Final Winner
Grand Final Winner
Posts: 15893
Joined: 31 Jan 2009, 03:55
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » 08 Oct 2019, 13:33

St Albans tiger wrote: 07 Oct 2019, 14:01 What is this nonsense about Toronto getting 10,000 plus for the game against Fev - the official capacity of the ground is only 9,600 and we all could see that the ends of the terrace were empty.

Don't get me wrong it was a good turnout - but you can do that at Cas if you give free tickets and subsidized beer
The official crowd was 9.7k but they have come out and said they think that there was more there than that. The official capacity of the ground only accounts for the seated areas, and doesn't account for the areas behind the posts, which have a huge number of fans too.

Irrespective of the actual amount, the crowd of 9.5/10k is more than most clubs in Super League. Inside 3 years. They were also all paying fans - no freebies were given out.
In the spirit of the final Blackadder episode - Goooodbyeee!

User avatar
Flat Capper
Grand Final Winner
Grand Final Winner
Posts: 15173
Joined: 06 Jul 2006, 00:10
Location: Where ever I lay my fat
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by Flat Capper » 08 Oct 2019, 13:59

HuddsTigers wrote: 08 Oct 2019, 13:31
Flat Capper wrote: 07 Oct 2019, 13:53
HuddsTigers wrote: 07 Oct 2019, 12:53...People are fearful because it's the small clubs that are being threatened and rightly so. They've had it cush for too long. This is why Cas need to be forward-thinking, outward-looking and sort out their promotion and attraction to fans and deliver on the field. If we don't want to be replaced then we have to lead, not expect it to be given to us.
Whilst I don't disagree with your principals in theory, the scale of the problem is a simple as this:-

Toronto - population 6 million+
Castleford - population 45k(ish)

However successful we may be, the fact remains that we will never attract more than 12-15k at best and that does not compete with the potential for 3 or 4 times that. From that, the powers that be have to decide what they want for the game and if it's a world product, Cas Tigers will become the equivalent of a non-league football team no matter how the club promotes itself.

Alternatively, the RFL could see the game as a more successful brand than it currently is but embracing its heritage whilst expanding to places like Coventry. Offering the right level of support for development clubs over here, targeting the Midlands and the South-West. Looking to establish clubs with a potential 20k fan base that doesn't take it beyond the potential level of the heart lands.
True but given that I'm sure Toronto has many different areas to it outside of the metropolitan centre, we shouldn't just view Cas as Castleford either but widen out our population and target audience beyond there. We have no club eastwards or northwards within 30 miles (Hull/York nearest ones). To the South, Doncaster is the nearest one.

We're also the premier team in Wakefield so we should be doing all we can to cover all of these areas to attract fans. Castleford will always be our identity but our fans don't just exist in Cas. The question is how can we attract people to our identity at all? An attractive team should be playing 10k and IF the new stadium happens, that has to be the catalyst for ambition.
I'm not suggesting for one moment that clubs like Cas should sit back and rest on their laurels. What i m suggesting is that with the right level of support from the RFL, these clubs could flourish. The practicalities for any sport travelling all around the world to play a standard league system is, to be quite frank, laughable.

Let’s build a strong base and build up from there rather than spreading our jam a little too thinly on the toast.
Image
Spreading the Cas gene pool

User avatar
Danny Boy
Verified
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4620
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 21:13
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by Danny Boy » 08 Oct 2019, 16:59

I found McDermott's outburst on Saturday, about northern English towns, offensive! I can guarantee, if he moves to an English club in the next couple of years, he will change his tune, as did his old Leeds colleague, Peacock, who advocated reducing the number of teams in the league to 10, until he moved to Hull KR.

I was hoping that the RFL would use Toronto's promotion as an opportunity to increase Superleague to 14 teams, especially with Toronto possibly helping increase the TV revenue and announcing they wouldn't take the Sky money. This would also stop the stupid loop fixtures, plus we could have retained London (a real growth area) and maybe also promote Toulouse, at least then we will keep the current number of British clubs in the league.

The ultimate aim should of course, be a North American League, also a French Superleague, maybe if the French RL were compensated for what the French government did to them during and after WW2, they would have the finances French RU appear have at their disposal.
Danny Boy

cogito ergo sum
Academy Player
Academy Player
Posts: 1676
Joined: 20 Jun 2016, 08:47
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by cogito ergo sum » 08 Oct 2019, 18:22

McDermott was referring to the potential for negotiating a bigger tv deal, and he speaks a grain of truth. TV want more viewers, which could be attracted by international city clubs, hence a better tv deal. As I’ve said many times on here, Sky are not interested in the regular fans with travel or work issues, only armchair fans. But suppose BT, Sky, Amazon, etc were competing for a deal...

Squaddie86
Academy Player
Academy Player
Posts: 491
Joined: 25 Jul 2012, 07:42
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by Squaddie86 » 08 Oct 2019, 18:49

Tamworth Tiger wrote: 08 Oct 2019, 09:31 There must be a Castleford in Aus
I Googled the other day Sydney to Cas and Sydney Toronto and the mileage was only 600 miles different!
Edit - never mind, I read what you'd googled wrong... but Toronto to Cas is 5,536 km (3440 miles) whereas Sydney to Cas is 16,922 km(10,515 miles).



In general here are the main points I see against Toronto and this is why I disagree with them:

Problem: They won't bring many away fans
Response: If clubs rely on away fans to survive they don't deserve to survive, and it's not like Huddersfield or Salford bring many away fans.

Problem: It's a British/European league
Response: Well now it's a European and North American League. Get over it.

Problem: The existence of Toronto, Catalans, and possibly Ottawa, New York, etc in future is threatening clubs with long histories like Featherstone.
Response: Those clubs have had a long time to become economically strong members of Rugby Leagues top division.

Problem: Toronto give away free tickets to get their numbers up
Response: So What? they're growing the game, a child given a free ticket today is a season ticket holder in 10 years. It's called investment and it's smart.

Problem: The RFL shouldn't be spending money on Toronto, they should spend it on the heartlands.
Response: The RFL hasn't spent a penny on Toronto, in fact Toronto paid the RFL to enter the league. In contrast; The RFL spent money buying Bradfords stadium to stop them going bust, and they still went bust.

Problem: The travel distances are too far, teams can't afford it and no way can Toronto maintain it.
Response: Right now Air Transat are sponsoring Toronto and paying flight costs for away teams to visit. The distance covered is not actually unusual in sports - for example Super Rugby has teams in Argentina, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, every North American sport sees west coast teams playing east coast teams (distances about the same as Toronto to Yorkshire). That said I do think that the lack of money in Rugby League does mean this might not be viable long term.


That's my opinion anyway.

I don't know if this Toronto experiment will be successful in the long run, I don't know if it's economically viable. What I do know is that Rugby League in the UK is currently a minority sport, who's biggest team can't even half-fill a 25,000 seat stadium most weeks. So as a sport we're not exactly gambling everything by letting a wealthy investor raise a team in Toronto and try to grow the game in a potentially very lucrative market.

I'd like there to be a professional North American league eventually, but right now the quickest way to grow the game there seems to be investing in teams joining an extant league. Maybe if Ottawa and New York are successful we can eventually look to creating a "North American division". I don't know.

But people being negative about it and whinging about Toronto being in the league, it all seems very parochial to me.

Tamworth Tiger
Championship Player
Championship Player
Posts: 7319
Joined: 07 Jul 2006, 16:29
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by Tamworth Tiger » 08 Oct 2019, 20:13

HuddsTigers wrote: 08 Oct 2019, 12:55 To defend the RFL slightly, it wasn't them that failed with Crusaders - it was the owners pulling the plug financially after just a few years. They were getting decent crowds before then and even brought a good following to Cas. Required heavy investment, as do all start-up clubs in a new area and time.

Which is why the Toronto adventure is slightly different. Clearly they're happy to fund the investment (something like £14m has been invested already) to build this up.

Bradford failed down to their owners. There's no way a club with 10,000+ fans should be getting into financial trouble or be unsustainable.

Gateshead/Newcastle is clearly a strong area to pursue and Newcastle Thunder have good owners in Newcastle Falcons to be able to have natural growth. The historical Gateshead side, it could be argued, bailed out Hull FC, which set it back a good few years.

Sheffield is a footballing city, same with London. The only way these teams will see any kind of growth potential is through huge investment and success.

The only way that can be done is by giving them a leg up, which as we've seen from this thread, some rugby league fans are against any expansion and/or differentiation of the rules to support these sides. The RFL also doesn't have the resources to underwrite the costs.

Not too sure on the dynamics of what the NRL did for Melbourne Storm but my understanding is that they had a higher salary cap and possibly even got funded by the other NRL clubs.

Could you imagine 11 other Super League clubs taking a stake in say Newcastle Thunder and allowing them a higher salary cap? No, me either.
The bottom line is that all those expansion attempts and a number of others failed with the only real success being in the Rugby League heartlands in the South of France
In terms of the NRL, whatever they did in Melbourne, my understanding is that they did nothing to develop the game in Perth because of the travelling distances involved .
I’m not fundamentally against expansion, I just have no faith in it working due to our abysmal track record

casjunction
Academy Player
Academy Player
Posts: 1883
Joined: 22 Jun 2012, 16:48
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by casjunction » 09 Oct 2019, 18:50

Toronto in Super League!
As many l want Rugby League to expand and also thrive in the so called heartlands of the M62 corridor and have little faith in those who administer our sport.
The Toronto experiment probably provided Rimmer and Co with some lucrative all expenses fact finding missions.
Will it fill stadia in the UK l doubt it.
Will it add to the carbon footprint?

St Albans tiger
Academy Player
Academy Player
Posts: 523
Joined: 06 Jul 2006, 13:04

Re: Toronto

Post by St Albans tiger » 09 Oct 2019, 19:10

Will be Rimmers legacy so that he can further is career before looking for a job in the FA or RFU with all the experience he has gained. Won't be the first and won't be the last

fast hands
Academy Player
Academy Player
Posts: 825
Joined: 28 Mar 2014, 09:20
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by fast hands » 09 Oct 2019, 21:34

Problem: The travel distances are too far, teams can't afford it and no way can Toronto maintain it.
Response: Right now Air Transat are sponsoring Toronto and paying flight costs for away teams to visit. The distance covered is not actually unusual in sports - for example Super Rugby has teams in Argentina, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, every North American sport sees west coast teams playing east coast teams (distances about the same as Toronto to Yorkshire). That said I do think that the lack of money in Rugby League does mean this might not be viable long term.

You are correct in stating Transat pay or paid last season the air fare travel expenses for clubs to and from Canada but I can tell you that it wasnt as simple as that.
When Hull KR played them over there this was what they had to do. Pay for their players for an overnight stay in a Manchester Hotel on the Wednesday night for an early morning flight. The return flight left HKR the problem of transporting the players and staff back to their homes at the clubs expense, as the Transat flight was to Glasgow. Also only a certain number of staff had a free flight,( Chamionship clubs only travelled with only people that were needed as they had to pay extra over a certain number of personell) Super league clubs will surely be taking over more staff than what Championship clubs did and will be costly, unless the Super League have an extra expenses in place for the clubs.
My own view is the same as yours, and clubs have to accept they have to up their anti and get ready for change. Come on Cas get that new ground up and running or we will be also rans same as a few more.

JIN JER
Academy Player
Academy Player
Posts: 1047
Joined: 27 Apr 2017, 10:53
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by JIN JER » 13 Oct 2019, 09:52

Won't the travel cost be covered by the fact that Toronto aren't taking their SKY money which will be shared by the other 11 clubs?

User avatar
yorky
Verified
League One Player
League One Player
Posts: 4622
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 18:50
Location: York, UK
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by yorky » 13 Oct 2019, 12:23

JIN JER wrote: 13 Oct 2019, 09:52 Won't the travel cost be covered by the fact that Toronto aren't taking their SKY money which will be shared by the other 11 clubs?
that was my thoughts too?

Swagger
Academy Player
Academy Player
Posts: 1758
Joined: 17 Jul 2018, 21:14
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by Swagger » 13 Oct 2019, 17:03

Well I can't wait to go me. I hope we miss the expensive weeks.

I pre looked for June and it was about £300 flights and hotels ranged depending how nice you want it.

duke street 10
Academy Player
Academy Player
Posts: 1827
Joined: 07 Jun 2009, 15:22
Location: glasshoughton,our new home?

Re: Toronto

Post by duke street 10 » 13 Oct 2019, 18:30

Swagger wrote: 13 Oct 2019, 17:03 Well I can't wait to go me. I hope we miss the expensive weeks.

I pre looked for June and it was about £300 flights and hotels ranged depending how nice you want it.
Im guessing the expensive weeks would be around Easter (2nd weekend in April i think next year) Canada Day (early July) and Labour Day (early September). They could have a bank holiday weekend in May but not sure when.

User avatar
lurcher
Verified
Super League Player
Super League Player
Posts: 10676
Joined: 19 Aug 2010, 23:25
Location: bridlington
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by lurcher » 15 Oct 2019, 12:55

according to an interview with their ceo they won't play a game at home until 15th april. he also says they won't play any thursday or friday night games in toronto so he must have already been told that.
mcdermott says he thinks it will be at least 15 years before they will have a home grown player who is super league standard.
jo brand is eddie warings love child

nottinghamtiger
Championship Player
Championship Player
Posts: 5272
Joined: 11 Jul 2006, 16:17
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by nottinghamtiger » 15 Oct 2019, 12:59

lurcher wrote: 15 Oct 2019, 12:55 according to an interview with their ceo they won't play a game at home until 15th april. he also says they won't play any thursday or friday night games in toronto so he must have already been told that.
mcdermott says he thinks it will be at least 15 years before they will have a home grown player who is super league standard.
As long as they don’t expect all their home games to be scheduled after 15th April and they can find a suitable alternative venue, that’s their problem. We cannot have them demanding a back-ended home fixture list. That means not all teams will travel to Toronto, but that’s up to them.
Not sure what the broadcast agreements are, but I’m not comfortable with them having their home games protected from Thursday/Friday nights. That just means it will happen to the other teams more often, and it’s bad enough as it is.

HuddsTigers
Verified
Grand Final Winner
Grand Final Winner
Posts: 15893
Joined: 31 Jan 2009, 03:55
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » 15 Oct 2019, 13:02

They will play their loop fixtures first so all teams only have to travel to Toronto once each.

The article says they are looking at double headers for the first few home games.

Thurs/Fri night games is a non-starter for the fact that Toronto is 6 hours beyond or so. Means it will be 1-2am in the UK fans. Won’t be good for Sky or for fans.

The compromise for me is that Toronto TV games are chosen for Saturday and the Thurs night games are dropped that week.
In the spirit of the final Blackadder episode - Goooodbyeee!

Bolton-tiger
Academy Player
Academy Player
Posts: 793
Joined: 29 Apr 2017, 20:25
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by Bolton-tiger » 22 Oct 2019, 08:32

HuddsTigers wrote: 15 Oct 2019, 13:02 They will play their loop fixtures first so all teams only have to travel to Toronto once each.

The article says they are looking at double headers for the first few home games.

Thurs/Fri night games is a non-starter for the fact that Toronto is 6 hours beyond or so. Means it will be 1-2am in the UK fans. Won’t be good for Sky or for fans.

The compromise for me is that Toronto TV games are chosen for Saturday and the Thurs night games are dropped that week.
If they dont play thursdays or fridays then they have an advantage of a longer turn around where other clubs who have to play thursdays and fridays might only get a 4 day turn around so stright away they have an advantage over other clubs which stright away makes it abit unfair.rfl shouldnt move the goal post to suit torronto,torronto should neet everything the other sl clubs meet ie play thursdays and fridays

User avatar
Flat Capper
Grand Final Winner
Grand Final Winner
Posts: 15173
Joined: 06 Jul 2006, 00:10
Location: Where ever I lay my fat
Contact:

Re: Toronto

Post by Flat Capper » 22 Oct 2019, 12:18

Insupect only their home fixtures will be restricted to weekends. when they play a block of away fixtures over here, some of them will have to be Thurs/Fri.
Image
Spreading the Cas gene pool

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests