Totonto and the Salary Cap

Super League, National Leagues and the NRL
cogito ergo sum
Danny Orr
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Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by cogito ergo sum » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:19 am

Not sure what we are now since the pits shut.
Answers on a postcard.

SuffolkTiger
Danny Orr
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Location: Bury St Edmunds

Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by SuffolkTiger » Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:36 pm

cogito ergo sum wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:19 am
Not sure what we are now since the pits shut.
Answers on a postcard.
I'm sure that Ray French will be able to help out here. Some of his "I didn't realise the microphone was still on" moments revealed a real dislike for us.

How he ever made a career in broadcasting defies belief...

Ken Smith
Kirk Dixon
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Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by Ken Smith » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:16 am

Totally agree with Suffolktiger about Toronto. I doubt they’ll ever sign a Canadian player in my lifetime. I doubt that Rugby League has much appeal in Scotland though and several attempts to spread the game in Wales have never succeeded. It’s a pity some millionaire can’t be found to put money into a Midlands club such as Coventry or Leicester as then Super League might then really take off and do away with the stupid loop fixtures. Incidentally I was led to believe that Swinton were to change there name to Manchester
yet still quoted as Swinton Lions at the moment. I’m wondering if there had been some objections from Salford.

orrsome
Dean Widders
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Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by orrsome » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:36 pm

IMO Toronto WP is very likely to fail as it cannot Call upon local talent and (so far) has had to buy in established RL players.
My view is that any investment in RL expansion should be channeled into places such as Cumbria, where there is a history of RL and some UK cities where there is at least a thriving RU game so that talent can be recognised and brought into RL.

Tamworth Tiger
Michael Eagar
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Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by Tamworth Tiger » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:17 am

Ken Smith wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:16 am
Totally agree with Suffolktiger about Toronto. I doubt they’ll ever sign a Canadian player in my lifetime. I doubt that Rugby League has much appeal in Scotland though and several attempts to spread the game in Wales have never succeeded. It’s a pity some millionaire can’t be found to put money into a Midlands club such as Coventry or Leicester as then Super League might then really take off and do away with the stupid loop fixtures. Incidentally I was led to believe that Swinton were to change there name to Manchester
yet still quoted as Swinton Lions at the moment. I’m wondering if there had been some objections from Salford.
In the case of Swinton I think the Board voted it down
In terms of the Midlands I’ve spent 35 of the last 40 years living in the East and West Midlands and was in Nottingham during the Nottingham City years. Quite honestly even though there are one or two big Union clubs generally Union isn’t that popular and not many understand there are two codes.
Football is king and I don’t believe a midlands city will take off when we can’t hack it at the top level in London,Sheffield or for that matter Bradford these days. Coventry is probably the best bet but the RFL will have to do better than the shambolic Four Nations double header four or so years ago which got virtually no local coverage
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cogito ergo sum
Danny Orr
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Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by cogito ergo sum » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:06 pm

I suppose a parallel would be trying an American Football team in London, as was once proposed.
In the States, a production line of players is well established through the schools and college structures. There is no such structure in England for that game. The only way Canada is sustainable for RL is to have opportunity for youngsters to play competitively from the grass roots. To grow any game, one needs roots and a bottom up organisation, not top down.

tigerfeat
Dale Fritz
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Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by tigerfeat » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:31 pm

There was a american football team in England the London Monarchs in the 90s used to get 50,000 people watching them i think the world league ended around 1998
Cant see it being long before a NFL team is based in London and they will be able to pick from the collage players same as any team in the NFL,I think the NFL team in London when it comes will be a big success but it wont lead to people playing at grass roots level just like it didnt when the world league was on
The measure of who we are is what we do with what we have
Vince Lombardi

HuddsTigers
Malcolm Reilly
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Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by HuddsTigers » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:44 pm

Tamworth Tiger wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:17 am
Ken Smith wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:16 am
Totally agree with Suffolktiger about Toronto. I doubt they’ll ever sign a Canadian player in my lifetime. I doubt that Rugby League has much appeal in Scotland though and several attempts to spread the game in Wales have never succeeded. It’s a pity some millionaire can’t be found to put money into a Midlands club such as Coventry or Leicester as then Super League might then really take off and do away with the stupid loop fixtures. Incidentally I was led to believe that Swinton were to change there name to Manchester
yet still quoted as Swinton Lions at the moment. I’m wondering if there had been some objections from Salford.
In the case of Swinton I think the Board voted it down
In terms of the Midlands I’ve spent 35 of the last 40 years living in the East and West Midlands and was in Nottingham during the Nottingham City years. Quite honestly even though there are one or two big Union clubs generally Union isn’t that popular and not many understand there are two codes.
Football is king and I don’t believe a midlands city will take off when we can’t hack it at the top level in London,Sheffield or for that matter Bradford these days. Coventry is probably the best bet but the RFL will have to do better than the shambolic Four Nations double header four or so years ago which got virtually no local coverage
It was the Board that proposed the Swinton name change. When the fans opposed it, they resigned en-masse and as such the club retained the Swinton name.

Andy Mazey then went and took over Rochdale (?) I think instead.
In the spirit of the final Blackadder episode - Goooodbyeee!

HuddsTigers
Malcolm Reilly
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Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by HuddsTigers » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:55 pm

cogito ergo sum wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:06 pm
I suppose a parallel would be trying an American Football team in London, as was once proposed.
In the States, a production line of players is well established through the schools and college structures. There is no such structure in England for that game. The only way Canada is sustainable for RL is to have opportunity for youngsters to play competitively from the grass roots. To grow any game, one needs roots and a bottom up organisation, not top down.
North American sport is different - they don't always rely on homegrown players and don't care about it. Hockey is a good example as many of them come from around the world and are not Canadians.

I disagree to an extent on a bottom up approach, particularly in a sport which is unknown in such a market. A bottom up approach won't get them anywhere as they wouldn't have the capital funding to sustain it nor would they be of sufficient quality in the first few years to do anything. It's a sure fire way to die on its backside. It's completely different to RL in this country in that we were borne out of rugby union and so already had the roots to take players from.

You need to develop a craze and get people interested first and foremost and the only way to do that is expose them to the best talent and give them something exciting. That then gets people hooked and you have the media attention and publicity to build something off the back of. You then put in the pathways to get schoolkids through the system but even if you got 14/15 year olds, it's still going to be 8/9 years to get them to SL level. And even then, you only need to look at British sides to look at the small percentage that go on to make a success of it.

Toronto have taken the right approach IMO and to be honest, they'd stand a better chance of success if there was a comparative salary cap in SL to the NRL and possibly a relaxation of quota regulations to enable the best talent to come to SL.

IMO, the best way forward is for Toronto to be the flagbearer for Canadian RL and for Ottawa to act as a supporting grassroots development team. The RFL should then encourage the setting up of a league like the French Championship, where they have 8-10 community clubs underneath that in the long term. Acts as a pyramid then.
In the spirit of the final Blackadder episode - Goooodbyeee!

tigerfeat
Dale Fritz
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Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by tigerfeat » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:12 pm

Rugby union in Canada has been quite a success they have a lot of players playing at grass root levels ,if rugby league takes off in Canada via Toronto it could make quite a impact in time in North America
The measure of who we are is what we do with what we have
Vince Lombardi

cogito ergo sum
Danny Orr
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Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by cogito ergo sum » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:14 pm

I think we’re talking sustainability. An American football team in England could maybe rely on picking up players from the American college system because a lot play and the top franchises are exclusive and hard to get, which ensures quality and a healthy player supply. In our game we are already saying the player base is reducing in this country, and top clubs trawl for, and pay handsomely for young talent. That’s why I think grass roots are needed to sustain growth in RL. Losing millions year on year is not a business model for success in Canada.

tigerfeat
Dale Fritz
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Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by tigerfeat » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:18 pm

cogito ergo sum wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:14 pm
I think we’re talking sustainability. An American football team in England could maybe rely on picking up players from the American college system because a lot play and the top franchises are exclusive and hard to get, which ensures quality and a healthy player supply. In our game we are already saying the player base is reducing in this country, and top clubs trawl for, and pay handsomely for young talent. That’s why I think grass roots are needed to sustain growth in RL. Losing millions year on year is not a business model for success in Canada.
Yes thats a fair point... Like i just said above rugby union as become popular in a number of parts of Canada at grass roots level rugby league will have to do the same
The measure of who we are is what we do with what we have
Vince Lombardi

cogito ergo sum
Danny Orr
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:47 am

Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by cogito ergo sum » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:27 pm

RU has been played in Canada since the 1800s, but a big factor determining professional success is the climate, as we are seeing already with Toronto, having to play away from home for a couple of months.

tigerfeat
Dale Fritz
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Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by tigerfeat » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:39 pm

Just looked online and it says there was a canadian rugby league comp in 1926 after the lions played a match there in 1925 but both union and league both faded out until union was re -introduced in the 80s since then its as grown modestly especially at grass roots level ,but like you say the climate in canada remains a on going problem
The measure of who we are is what we do with what we have
Vince Lombardi

Tamworth Tiger
Michael Eagar
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Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:29 pm

Re: Totonto and the Salary Cap

Post by Tamworth Tiger » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:35 pm

HuddsTigers wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:44 pm
Tamworth Tiger wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:17 am
Ken Smith wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:16 am
Totally agree with Suffolktiger about Toronto. I doubt they’ll ever sign a Canadian player in my lifetime. I doubt that Rugby League has much appeal in Scotland though and several attempts to spread the game in Wales have never succeeded. It’s a pity some millionaire can’t be found to put money into a Midlands club such as Coventry or Leicester as then Super League might then really take off and do away with the stupid loop fixtures. Incidentally I was led to believe that Swinton were to change there name to Manchester
yet still quoted as Swinton Lions at the moment. I’m wondering if there had been some objections from Salford.
In the case of Swinton I think the Board voted it down
In terms of the Midlands I’ve spent 35 of the last 40 years living in the East and West Midlands and was in Nottingham during the Nottingham City years. Quite honestly even though there are one or two big Union clubs generally Union isn’t that popular and not many understand there are two codes.
Football is king and I don’t believe a midlands city will take off when we can’t hack it at the top level in London,Sheffield or for that matter Bradford these days. Coventry is probably the best bet but the RFL will have to do better than the shambolic Four Nations double header four or so years ago which got virtually no local coverage
It was the Board that proposed the Swinton name change. When the fans opposed it, they resigned en-masse and as such the club retained the Swinton name.

Andy Mazey then went and took over Rochdale (?) I think instead.
Thanks
Couldn’t remember if it was the Board or the fans. Makes sense.
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