Toronto

Super League, National Leagues and the NRL
Derbyshiretiger
Sean Rudder
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Re: Toronto

Post by Derbyshiretiger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:56 am

derbystiger wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:06 pm
No ones gonna convince me it’s a good thing. Admitting a team 8000 miles away is madness, an absolute joke. I’m all for expanding the game but the RFL’s job should be to expand it in our own country. As for football and rugby union travelling, yes they do - in separate competitions, they have a domestic league aswell. Let Canada/North America have their own league and then play a ‘champions league’ style separately and I’d have no issue. Bringing them into our league is a joke. Who’s gonna give me odds on this being the start of RFL merger talks and wanting ‘Calder’ again??!
Bang on. I said it from the start. Let them set up there own league then play a mini world tournament every year or 2 . Whatever. RFL a joke. Been a cas fan 45 year but I'm very quickly starting to lose interest at the way it's being run. Laughing stock.

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jackknife
Luke Gale
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Re: Toronto

Post by jackknife » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:59 am

derbystiger wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:06 pm
No ones gonna convince me it’s a good thing. Admitting a team 8000 miles away is madness, an absolute joke. I’m all for expanding the game but the RFL’s job should be to expand it in our own country. As for football and rugby union travelling, yes they do - in separate competitions, they have a domestic league aswell. Let Canada/North America have their own league and then play a ‘champions league’ style separately and I’d have no issue. Bringing them into our league is a joke. Who’s gonna give me odds on this being the start of RFL merger talks and wanting ‘Calder’ again??!
Says 3500 miles away Google but i agree
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Tamworth Tiger
Michael Eagar
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Re: Toronto

Post by Tamworth Tiger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:31 am

There must be a Castleford in Aus
I Googled the other day Sydney to Cas and Sydney Toronto and the mileage was only 600 miles different!
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braytontiger
Michael Eagar
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Re: Toronto

Post by braytontiger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:51 am

All those that believe a world expansion is a good thing I’d say you are like turkey’s voting for Christmas.

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mart0042
Brad Davis
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Re: Toronto

Post by mart0042 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:01 am

I think we need to try a few things and see what Elstone can do. He's the man charged with getting us the sky deal and taking the game at the elite level forward.

14 teams and no loop fixtures, an increased sky deal and with North American deal like espn.

Our crowd is probably limited at 12k even if we are the best in the sport, but we know that. Even though it's over a quarter of the Cas population and amazing, it wouldn't be enough if we want the sort to grow big. The thing is that's higher than so many others could be.

tigerfeat
Dale Fritz
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Re: Toronto

Post by tigerfeat » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:08 am

think ive said before no doubt in my mind you will end up with a super league of big city clubs and on any given Sunday you will see London playing Barcelona in front of 1500 speccies and on same afternoon Bradford will be playing cas in another comp in front of 15000

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mart0042
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Re: Toronto

Post by mart0042 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:14 am

tigerfeat wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:08 am
think ive said before no doubt in my mind you will end up with a super league of big city clubs and on any given Sunday you will see London playing Barcelona in front of 1500 speccies and on same afternoon Bradford will be playing cas in another comp in front of 15000
Maybe, but I'd still be watching Cas.

Scoopage
Junior Moors
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Re: Toronto

Post by Scoopage » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:16 am

Will they have to run a A team like rest of superleague?if so who is going to fund the travel for that?

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mart0042
Brad Davis
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Re: Toronto

Post by mart0042 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:26 am

Scoopage wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:16 am
Will they have to run a A team like rest of superleague?if so who is going to fund the travel for that?
No, like catalans, they won't.

Tamworth Tiger
Michael Eagar
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Re: Toronto

Post by Tamworth Tiger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:13 pm

tigerfeat wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:08 am
think ive said before no doubt in my mind you will end up with a super league of big city clubs and on any given Sunday you will see London playing Barcelona in front of 1500 speccies and on same afternoon Bradford will be playing cas in another comp in front of 15000
Genuinely can’t see it happening. The RFL have now failed at the top level in Paris, Cardiff, Nottingham, London, Kent, Wrexham, Gateshead, Sheffield , Bradford etc. etc.
Come up with a viable London team and I might just start to believe that they could bring another City team in as well.
Not sure what the definition of a city is in their eyes though, McDermott seems to think that the City of Salford is a ‘small northern town’
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HuddsTigers
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Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:55 pm

To defend the RFL slightly, it wasn't them that failed with Crusaders - it was the owners pulling the plug financially after just a few years. They were getting decent crowds before then and even brought a good following to Cas. Required heavy investment, as do all start-up clubs in a new area and time.

Which is why the Toronto adventure is slightly different. Clearly they're happy to fund the investment (something like £14m has been invested already) to build this up.

Bradford failed down to their owners. There's no way a club with 10,000+ fans should be getting into financial trouble or be unsustainable.

Gateshead/Newcastle is clearly a strong area to pursue and Newcastle Thunder have good owners in Newcastle Falcons to be able to have natural growth. The historical Gateshead side, it could be argued, bailed out Hull FC, which set it back a good few years.

Sheffield is a footballing city, same with London. The only way these teams will see any kind of growth potential is through huge investment and success.

The only way that can be done is by giving them a leg up, which as we've seen from this thread, some rugby league fans are against any expansion and/or differentiation of the rules to support these sides. The RFL also doesn't have the resources to underwrite the costs.

Not too sure on the dynamics of what the NRL did for Melbourne Storm but my understanding is that they had a higher salary cap and possibly even got funded by the other NRL clubs.

Could you imagine 11 other Super League clubs taking a stake in say Newcastle Thunder and allowing them a higher salary cap? No, me either.
In the spirit of the final Blackadder episode - Goooodbyeee!

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Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:31 pm

Flat Capper wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:53 pm
HuddsTigers wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:53 pm
...People are fearful because it's the small clubs that are being threatened and rightly so. They've had it cush for too long. This is why Cas need to be forward-thinking, outward-looking and sort out their promotion and attraction to fans and deliver on the field. If we don't want to be replaced then we have to lead, not expect it to be given to us.
Whilst I don't disagree with your principals in theory, the scale of the problem is a simple as this:-

Toronto - population 6 million+
Castleford - population 45k(ish)

However successful we may be, the fact remains that we will never attract more than 12-15k at best and that does not compete with the potential for 3 or 4 times that. From that, the powers that be have to decide what they want for the game and if it's a world product, Cas Tigers will become the equivalent of a non-league football team no matter how the club promotes itself.

Alternatively, the RFL could see the game as a more successful brand than it currently is but embracing its heritage whilst expanding to places like Coventry. Offering the right level of support for development clubs over here, targeting the Midlands and the South-West. Looking to establish clubs with a potential 20k fan base that doesn't take it beyond the potential level of the heart lands.
True but given that I'm sure Toronto has many different areas to it outside of the metropolitan centre, we shouldn't just view Cas as Castleford either but widen out our population and target audience beyond there. We have no club eastwards or northwards within 30 miles (Hull/York nearest ones). To the South, Doncaster is the nearest one.

We're also the premier team in Wakefield so we should be doing all we can to cover all of these areas to attract fans. Castleford will always be our identity but our fans don't just exist in Cas. The question is how can we attract people to our identity at all? An attractive team should be playing 10k and IF the new stadium happens, that has to be the catalyst for ambition.
In the spirit of the final Blackadder episode - Goooodbyeee!

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Re: Toronto

Post by HuddsTigers » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:33 pm

St Albans tiger wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:01 pm
What is this nonsense about Toronto getting 10,000 plus for the game against Fev - the official capacity of the ground is only 9,600 and we all could see that the ends of the terrace were empty.

Don't get me wrong it was a good turnout - but you can do that at Cas if you give free tickets and subsidized beer
The official crowd was 9.7k but they have come out and said they think that there was more there than that. The official capacity of the ground only accounts for the seated areas, and doesn't account for the areas behind the posts, which have a huge number of fans too.

Irrespective of the actual amount, the crowd of 9.5/10k is more than most clubs in Super League. Inside 3 years. They were also all paying fans - no freebies were given out.
In the spirit of the final Blackadder episode - Goooodbyeee!

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Flat Capper
Alan Hardisty
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Re: Toronto

Post by Flat Capper » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:59 pm

HuddsTigers wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:31 pm
Flat Capper wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:53 pm
HuddsTigers wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:53 pm
...People are fearful because it's the small clubs that are being threatened and rightly so. They've had it cush for too long. This is why Cas need to be forward-thinking, outward-looking and sort out their promotion and attraction to fans and deliver on the field. If we don't want to be replaced then we have to lead, not expect it to be given to us.
Whilst I don't disagree with your principals in theory, the scale of the problem is a simple as this:-

Toronto - population 6 million+
Castleford - population 45k(ish)

However successful we may be, the fact remains that we will never attract more than 12-15k at best and that does not compete with the potential for 3 or 4 times that. From that, the powers that be have to decide what they want for the game and if it's a world product, Cas Tigers will become the equivalent of a non-league football team no matter how the club promotes itself.

Alternatively, the RFL could see the game as a more successful brand than it currently is but embracing its heritage whilst expanding to places like Coventry. Offering the right level of support for development clubs over here, targeting the Midlands and the South-West. Looking to establish clubs with a potential 20k fan base that doesn't take it beyond the potential level of the heart lands.
True but given that I'm sure Toronto has many different areas to it outside of the metropolitan centre, we shouldn't just view Cas as Castleford either but widen out our population and target audience beyond there. We have no club eastwards or northwards within 30 miles (Hull/York nearest ones). To the South, Doncaster is the nearest one.

We're also the premier team in Wakefield so we should be doing all we can to cover all of these areas to attract fans. Castleford will always be our identity but our fans don't just exist in Cas. The question is how can we attract people to our identity at all? An attractive team should be playing 10k and IF the new stadium happens, that has to be the catalyst for ambition.
I'm not suggesting for one moment that clubs like Cas should sit back and rest on their laurels. What i m suggesting is that with the right level of support from the RFL, these clubs could flourish. The practicalities for any sport travelling all around the world to play a standard league system is, to be quite frank, laughable.

Let’s build a strong base and build up from there rather than spreading our jam a little too thinly on the toast.
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Danny Boy
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Re: Toronto

Post by Danny Boy » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:59 pm

I found McDermott's outburst on Saturday, about northern English towns, offensive! I can guarantee, if he moves to an English club in the next couple of years, he will change his tune, as did his old Leeds colleague, Peacock, who advocated reducing the number of teams in the league to 10, until he moved to Hull KR.

I was hoping that the RFL would use Toronto's promotion as an opportunity to increase Superleague to 14 teams, especially with Toronto possibly helping increase the TV revenue and announcing they wouldn't take the Sky money. This would also stop the stupid loop fixtures, plus we could have retained London (a real growth area) and maybe also promote Toulouse, at least then we will keep the current number of British clubs in the league.

The ultimate aim should of course, be a North American League, also a French Superleague, maybe if the French RL were compensated for what the French government did to them during and after WW2, they would have the finances French RU appear have at their disposal.
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