Try or no try.....That is the Question?

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Router1977
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Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by Router1977 » 18 Jul 2021, 08:51

Having now come down from yet another big disappointment, the question of try or no try will rumble on for months and years and possible decades to come.

Firstly and having analysed all the footage, we have 3 major decisions to resolve in 1 moment of play so doing the simple maths we have 3 yes or no calls to determine if play should continue and any team to get all 3 correct calls in a high pressure stakes final have to be very lucky indeed.

Firstly, was in a knock on? Look at the footage It looks like the intention was to knock the ball back and in the flight it marginally goes forward so on that basis Cas are unlucky. It's a 50 50 call and you probably give advantage to the attacking team.

Secondly, did the point of the ball touch the line.....? We are talking a matter of milimeters here but for me the white ball is not separated from the white line so it is seamlessly connected and so it's out. The video ref commentary of "I can see a bit of green" is amazing. He should of asked for some further zoomed in footage so he could cleary justify his decision. In actual time, it looked all day long to the naked eye that the ball was in contact with the line and for the referee to signal a try in these circumstances on the field is ridiculous. The touch judge if he had any balls should have put the flag up straight away in my view. So Saints very fortunate to get that call too.

Thirdly and probably the most contentious is was he in play or out of play. Firstly the rules are so open ended and open to interpretation that surely this now needs some further clarity. The player left foot was clear on the line and out of play when he decided to jump for the ball. In normal circumstances when you jump from a standing start, both feet would naturally come of the field of play together and so when the ball is touched it should be dead. However in this circumstance the players right foot was slightly behind by a matter of miliseconds which luckily enough by default deems him touching the ball within the field of play. Cas very unlucky to be on the wrong end of this decision but it should of not rest on this because for me the previous 2 items are more in Cas favour than Saints.

You have to be very very very lucky for you to get all three calls and this eventually was the game changer.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by Smudger » 18 Jul 2021, 09:14

Rules are clear - they just decided to alter them (or ignore them!).
"Jumping player knocks ball back The ball is in touch if a player jumps from touch and while off the ground touches the ball. The ball is not in touch if during flight it crosses the touch line but is knocked back by a player who is off the ground after jumping from the field of play."
https://www.rugby-league.com/governance ... f-the-game
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You don't want to do it like that! :) :) :)

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by Router1977 » 18 Jul 2021, 09:23

I be honest and apply that word by word then he is in touch. End of. The fact that his other foot was on the pitch does not matter. The RFL have just interrupted that rule wrong.

The Game is BENT towards the top 5 teams.

We go again.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by cogito ergo sum » 18 Jul 2021, 09:26

Two points for the last two posts…once the ref sends it up for a try we are basically stuffed. If he sends up no try, video ref calls a knock on or something else to fit.
Jumping from touch…video ref says the last point of contact with the ground was right foot in play…

And last try…how could he send it up as a try when nobody could see the ball? He’s send it up as probably….but that didn’t cost the game. It all seems unsatisfactory.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by Dennis Vazquez » 18 Jul 2021, 09:30

To win a final, I those conditions against Saints you have to get the edge in the 50 50s.
We got almost nothing of the 5 or 6 major calls.
How many times were they pinged for offside?
How many were Cas?
High shot under the posts in first half not given. Then obstruction on Matautia in second half given. Both were poor and absolute killers. Then same from 2 drop outs- Saints knock on not given. Makinson milks a pen for contact (which was nothing compared to the high shot not given in first).
When you get all those calls, plus, ball bounce off the post and falling into your lap for a try, a loose pass to ground still resulting in a try and then a try sent upstairs for Amor which looked inconclusive, no wonder you win trophies like sides like Saints. They are good enough as it is with all that help.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by FIat Capper » 19 Jul 2021, 11:31

I was watching it live on the Beeb and like everyone else, I saw it the way I wanted to see it.

However, the Beeb commentary team did mention that the Touchie was happy, hence it being sent upstairs. What I don't understand is if the TJ isn't happy, why was it signaled as an on-field try decision? Surely the ref should have sent it up as a no try and if so, may have not been given.

One can only speculate now but it did change the game.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by Mucky1978 » 19 Jul 2021, 11:44

Yep Moore was told by a linesman it wasn't a try but still give it.
The guys corrupt.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by Tamworth Tiger » 19 Jul 2021, 12:04

My view is that if a ref ought to have the third option of saying that he is genuinely unsure ( unsighted or whatever) and in those circumstances the video ref can make the decision on balance of probabilities rather than the ref’s decision goes, unless it can be disproved.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by old cas lass » 19 Jul 2021, 12:21

Mucky1978 wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 11:44 Yep Moore was told by a linesman it wasn't a try but still give it.
The guys corrupt.
Yep I saw linesman make the motion of a knock on.
Moore still sent it up as a try, should have gone up as no try.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by nottinghamtiger » 19 Jul 2021, 12:25

I would advocate for a more drastic change:

The referee should make the decision on the field to award 'try' or 'no try'. They have to do it at non-TV games anyway (and in every other league) so it's not like asking them to make a decision is out of their remit.

If the on-field referee awards the try, the decision should be reviewed by the VR whilst the conversion is being set up - giving the VR the opportunity to intervene if the VR thinks there may have been an error. The VR can then communicate with the on-field referee to delay the conversion until the try is either confirmed or disallowed.

If the referee makes a 'no try' decision, the game should continue and the VR should review the footage as the game unfolds. The VR can then stop the game if the decision needs to be looked at more closely.

More often than not, the on-field referee's decision is the one that is confirmed anyway. We are spending too much time with the game stopped whilst the VR deliberates and then agrees with the on-field referee anyway. We have the technology to review these decisions without causing endless delays in the game, so let's use it.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by nottinghamtiger » 19 Jul 2021, 12:51

old cas lass wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 12:21
Mucky1978 wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 11:44 Yep Moore was told by a linesman it wasn't a try but still give it.
The guys corrupt.
Yep I saw linesman make the motion of a knock on.
Moore still sent it up as a try, should have gone up as no try.
The thing is that the way to stop any team from scoring is to make sure the referee doesn't have a decision to make.
Someone should have caught that ball and when it did bounce, we shouldn't have switched off and watched what happened.
Even after the ball has bounced, we've let Grace get first contact with it, allowed Thompson to catch the ball and pass it with four players watching him (three of them didn't even move and just waved their hands about and pointed because they thought the ball went out) - only Evalds made any effort to catch Roby.
We've also got two players (JSL and Milner) who were actually closer to the ball than Roby when it bounced and made no effort at all to put themselves in play (JSL literally stood still) - Roby just ran past them as they stood and watched what was happening. With any effort, they are between Thompson and Roby and the pass isn't on, or they are between Roby and the line to make an attempt at tackling him.

Small efforts win big games. Roby was willing to chase the ball when it bounced whilst 5 of our players stood still and watched. They did the same thing in last years Grand Final, too.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by old cas lass » 19 Jul 2021, 13:01

nottinghamtiger wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 12:51
old cas lass wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 12:21
Mucky1978 wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 11:44 Yep Moore was told by a linesman it wasn't a try but still give it.
The guys corrupt.
Yep I saw linesman make the motion of a knock on.
Moore still sent it up as a try, should have gone up as no try.
The thing is that the way to stop any team from scoring is to make sure the referee doesn't have a decision to make.
Someone should have caught that ball and when it did bounce, we shouldn't have switched off and watched what happened.
Even after the ball has bounced, we've let Grace get first contact with it, allowed Thompson to catch the ball and pass it with four players watching him (three of them didn't even move and just waved their hands about and pointed because they thought the ball went out) - only Evalds made any effort to catch Roby.
We've also got two players (JSL and Milner) who were actually closer to the ball than Roby when it bounced and made no effort at all to put themselves in play (JSL literally stood still) - Roby just ran past them as they stood and watched what was happening. With any effort, they are between Thompson and Roby and the pass isn't on, or they are between Roby and the line to make an attempt at tackling him.

Small efforts win big games. Roby was willing to chase the ball when it bounced whilst 5 of our players stood still and watched. They did the same thing in last years Grand Final, too.
Absolutely notts.
When I watched it on the big screen, which was right behind me.
I was livid the way our players just stood and didn’t compete for the ball.
They were like spectators watching the game.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by nottinghamtiger » 19 Jul 2021, 13:30

old cas lass wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 13:01
nottinghamtiger wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 12:51
old cas lass wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 12:21
Mucky1978 wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 11:44 Yep Moore was told by a linesman it wasn't a try but still give it.
The guys corrupt.
Yep I saw linesman make the motion of a knock on.
Moore still sent it up as a try, should have gone up as no try.
The thing is that the way to stop any team from scoring is to make sure the referee doesn't have a decision to make.
Someone should have caught that ball and when it did bounce, we shouldn't have switched off and watched what happened.
Even after the ball has bounced, we've let Grace get first contact with it, allowed Thompson to catch the ball and pass it with four players watching him (three of them didn't even move and just waved their hands about and pointed because they thought the ball went out) - only Evalds made any effort to catch Roby.
We've also got two players (JSL and Milner) who were actually closer to the ball than Roby when it bounced and made no effort at all to put themselves in play (JSL literally stood still) - Roby just ran past them as they stood and watched what was happening. With any effort, they are between Thompson and Roby and the pass isn't on, or they are between Roby and the line to make an attempt at tackling him.

Small efforts win big games. Roby was willing to chase the ball when it bounced whilst 5 of our players stood still and watched. They did the same thing in last years Grand Final, too.
Absolutely notts.
When I watched it on the big screen, which was right behind me.
I was livid the way our players just stood and didn’t compete for the ball.
They were like spectators watching the game.
I remember speaking to someone who was coached by Michael McGuire and Wane at Wigan and their mantra was that small efforts win big games, and you've got to make them every week so they become the norm. The Leeds players said the same thing when McDermott was leading them to final win after final win. The culture and philosophy was that you always put yourself in a position to affect play. It's coaching, not of technical aspects of the game but of the mentality to win finals. McGuire and Wane used to spray players on video reviews if they were stood still watching play unfold and players who did it were quickly dropped from the team and out of the club.

Saints seem to have that attitude and mentality at the moment. It won them the Grand Final last year when Welsby chased down a kick and the Challenge Cup at the weekend when Roby chased a ball that hadn't even bounced and made the effort to put himself in play. If Roby hadn't taken the pass, there were other Saints players there who had made the same effort to put themselves in a position to affect play whilst five of our players stood around watching - only Evalds showed a level of effort that matched the Saints players on that particular play.

Whilst I'm a massive fan of Daryl Powell, my wonder is whether our players are coached to have that winning attitude and make those small efforts, especially in big games. Coaching isn't just about the technical side of developing skills and structures, it's about developing mindset and attitude. I think that becomes questionable now we have lost three finals and performed poorly in two and a half of them.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by TheSheriff » 19 Jul 2021, 13:42

If you come from out of play, they should adopt the American football rule of you have to "re-establish" yourself in bounds before you touch the ball i.e. both feet back on the pitch (in the NFL you even can't be the first person to touch the ball if you willingly go out of bounds and come back in).

There should be no on field try/no try call, again this is where they should copy American sports and allow the on field officials to communicate and provide opinions with the VR as they can also see the replays.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by tigerfeat » 19 Jul 2021, 13:46

I can't fault the players effort no doubt one or two were playing banged up if we had gone 12 -13 points up which we could easily have done before half time I'm sure we would have won
Suppose you can always won't more out of players but they left everything out on the field for me Saturday
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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by nottinghamtiger » 19 Jul 2021, 13:57

tigerfeat wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 13:46 I can't fault the players effort no doubt one or two were playing banged up if we had gone 12 -13 points up which we could easily have done before half time I'm sure we would have won
Suppose you can always won't more out of players but they left everything out on the field for me Saturday
I can fault the effort on that play. After only two minutes of the second half, five of our players stood still whilst the Saints players didn't.

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Re: Try or no try.....That is the Question?

Post by mdean » 19 Jul 2021, 15:13

After the emotional posts of Saturday and Sunday, there is a lot more calm reflection in this thread, thanks to all for some good points.

When I watched it back with a hangover again on Sunday morning, I was a lot less emotional and have to confess that the three calls detailed in this thread, if they'd be our scores, I would have been happy enough with them.
Completely agree the high shot in front of the posts just before half time, he plays seemingly advantage, we lose 19M in that play and that is deemed play on then and the advantage which didn't exist evaporates.

I do have to agree with some of the points also made, we didn't play to the whistle on their decisive score.

All in all, we didn't bottle it and we showed up and made a game of it, but ultimately winning is all that matters on those finals and we didn't.

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