STEVE GILL

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by nottinghamtiger » 28 Apr 2021, 13:15

FIat Capper wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 12:49 One can only speculate but the rules covering 'employment' seem clear. However, as I understand it, during his suspension and then ban he wasn't employed by any RL club, including Wigan, but that's not my point.

They (Wigan) may have arranged for help for him, drug counselling, education, moved him away from his peers, supported him in any capacity allowed, all in the belief he would repay that faith and sign for them.

Reap what you sow...
Exactly.
The criticism that the club should not have dismissed him ignores the clear fact that the club could not do anything other that dismiss him given the UKAD/WADA regulations.
We could, of course, have re-signed him and employed him again after his suspension, but he could not remain employed during his suspension.

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by nottinghamtiger » 28 Apr 2021, 13:17

tigerfeat wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 08:14
nottinghamtiger wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 07:54
dettoriman wrote: 27 Apr 2021, 19:56 While he did great work to help turn the club around along with Daryl Powell

The sacking of Zak Hardaker was a very costly move and quite short sighted.
The club had no choice but to dismiss Hardaker.
Anyone suspended by WADA/UKAD cannot have a contract of employment with a sporting organisation, or even a company that is financially connected to a sporting organisation (eg sponsors).
It’s the rules.
Then Wigan stepped in and bans and suspensions didn't seem to matter so much
Again, they did not employ Hardaker *during* his suspension.

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by HuddsTigers » 28 Apr 2021, 14:10

tigerfeat wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 08:12
HuddsTigers wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 06:49 Aside from the fact he's turned around the club financially and been a key component of our on and off field success.

Mark Gratton has done a good job. I like Steve Gill but he was more a fan and sponsor side CEO than one who was responsible for the finances.
Who you on about turning the club around Mark Gratton ??
I'm not pinning it all on MG but he's been a huge part of it - and particularly managing the club during the current situation too. Arguably a hugely challenging period.

It was SG who brought in and changed the BoD when he was appointed. Mark Grattan was the Commercial Director, and led a lot of the financial side of the club while SG did more of the front side, fans/sponsors/playing staff etc. I thought it was already common knowledge - I'm sure it has even come from IF/SG/JW or someone connected at the club that MG has been vital. When he came in, I'm sure the first thing he did was rip up and renegotiate a lot of our historical contracts.

I certainly think MG is a vital cog of the club going forward.
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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by HuddsTigers » 28 Apr 2021, 14:17

nottinghamtiger wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 10:49
Tamworth Tiger wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 08:36
nottinghamtiger wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 07:54
dettoriman wrote: 27 Apr 2021, 19:56 While he did great work to help turn the club around along with Daryl Powell

The sacking of Zak Hardaker was a very costly move and quite short sighted.
The club had no choice but to dismiss Hardaker.
Anyone suspended by WADA/UKAD cannot have a contract of employment with a sporting organisation, or even a company that is financially connected to a sporting organisation (eg sponsors).
It’s the rules.
So are you saying that we had a legal obligation to dismiss him and make him a free agent with no entitlement to compensation if someone else subsequently offered him a contract? I find that really surprising.
Correct.

“No Person who has been declared Ineligible may, during the period of Ineligibility, participate in any capacity in a Competition or activity (other than authorized anti-doping education or rehabilitation programs) authorized or organized by any Signatory or Signatory's member organization.”

A contract of employment (either at Cas or organised by Cas) inherently involves activity that is authorised and/or organised by the club.
My understanding of these rules is not that he cannot have a contract with the club but he cannot undertake any work in any regard for them. In fact, I think there are examples of players remaining at clubs while banned across all sports. Didn't Rangi stay at Widnes? News article says he was suspended not sacked.

The rules above, in my understanding, mean he cannot be at the club, cannot participate in training, off field activities, undertake promotional work, do any community work such as visit schools as a representative of the club, and obviously cannot play.

Essentially, a club can stand by their player and honour their contract to sit on his/her backside for the duration of their ban/contract until it expires. However, the vast majority don't do this and fire them because it's a waste of money. This results in said player either sucking it up or having to find another job.

Similarly, another club is only likely to start the contract from the moment his ban ends again, so thry don't have have pay him. Didn't Wigan sign Hardaker and then he got a reduced ban that allowed him to return to training earlier and participate in club activities without being able to play before his ban ended?
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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by nottinghamtiger » 28 Apr 2021, 15:14

HuddsTigers wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 14:17
nottinghamtiger wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 10:49
Tamworth Tiger wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 08:36
nottinghamtiger wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 07:54
dettoriman wrote: 27 Apr 2021, 19:56 While he did great work to help turn the club around along with Daryl Powell

The sacking of Zak Hardaker was a very costly move and quite short sighted.
The club had no choice but to dismiss Hardaker.
Anyone suspended by WADA/UKAD cannot have a contract of employment with a sporting organisation, or even a company that is financially connected to a sporting organisation (eg sponsors).
It’s the rules.
So are you saying that we had a legal obligation to dismiss him and make him a free agent with no entitlement to compensation if someone else subsequently offered him a contract? I find that really surprising.
Correct.

“No Person who has been declared Ineligible may, during the period of Ineligibility, participate in any capacity in a Competition or activity (other than authorized anti-doping education or rehabilitation programs) authorized or organized by any Signatory or Signatory's member organization.”

A contract of employment (either at Cas or organised by Cas) inherently involves activity that is authorised and/or organised by the club.
My understanding of these rules is not that he cannot have a contract with the club but he cannot undertake any work in any regard for them. In fact, I think there are examples of players remaining at clubs while banned across all sports. Didn't Rangi stay at Widnes? News article says he was suspended not sacked.

The rules above, in my understanding, mean he cannot be at the club, cannot participate in training, off field activities, undertake promotional work, do any community work such as visit schools as a representative of the club, and obviously cannot play.

Essentially, a club can stand by their player and honour their contract to sit on his/her backside for the duration of their ban/contract until it expires. However, the vast majority don't do this and fire them because it's a waste of money. This results in said player either sucking it up or having to find another job.

Similarly, another club is only likely to start the contract from the moment his ban ends again, so thry don't have have pay him. Didn't Wigan sign Hardaker and then he got a reduced ban that allowed him to return to training earlier and participate in club activities without being able to play before his ban ended?
I guess some if this is true, maybe.

If his 'employment' involved no involvement with the club or any associated sponsors, we could continue to pay his wages and he would remain our 'employee'. Yes, I suppose that the club could have paid him 10k a month (I'm estimating) to sit on his backside for what would, at the time, probably have been two years. As you say, that would have been a waste of money, but I wonder if that decision might have been different if we knew that his suspension would only last for one season? We'd already paid £150k for him, so perhaps we would have stood his wages for a season IF we had known that would be the length of his suspension.

I do think that an argument could be made, though, that a contract of employment inherently has a de facto activity attached to it - the very nature of an employment contract is work activity.

To make it even more complicated, if we had continued to pay Hardaker to sit on his backside and have no involvement with the club, he could probably also claim breach of contract. As above, a contract of employment is inherently linked to activity and an employer who does not provide such activity can be deemed to be in breach of that contract. There have been examples of this, whereby a company simply pays an employee, binding them to an employment contract, to prevent them undertaking work elsewhere but not actually allowing them to undertake work for them. So Harkader wouldn't have necessarily had to 'suck it up' in this situation.

Wigan (or any club) were of course allowed to offer him a contract at any point during his period of ineligibility, as long as that contract did not start prior to the end of his suspension. My understanding is that they actually signed him before his suspension was determined, so his contract would have started on the date that his suspension ended, whatever that may have been. Maybe they thought that they could support him to mitigate his ban, but that was by no means guaranteed.
As per the 'normal' procedures towards the end of a suspension, he was allowed to return to training for a period of time prior to the end of his suspension.

In terms of Rangi, he didn't play for Widnes again after his suspension. I don't know whether he was dismissed or just left by mutual agreement, but I'm pretty sure Widnes would not have continued to pay him during his period of ineligibility.
I can't think of any cases where a player continued to be contracted to a club during a UKAD suspension. Gareth Hock re-signed for Wigan *after* his suspension, but (like Hardaker) he was free to sign anywhere between his suspension and re-signing for Wigan.

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by tizer » 28 Apr 2021, 16:52

Zak wanted a £0 contract until he could play again but this was turned down

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by Tamworth Tiger » 28 Apr 2021, 19:32

tizer wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 16:52 Zak wanted a £0 contract until he could play again but this was turned down
If that is true (who knows?) , then the Management decision to sack was a bad one as it overcomes most of the points made above and led to the club letting a valuable asset go fo free, which I don’t believe any rules would have required us to do

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by Fumper27 » 28 Apr 2021, 20:07

Tamworth Tiger wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 19:32
tizer wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 16:52 Zak wanted a £0 contract until he could play again but this was turned down
If that is true (who knows?) , then the Management decision to sack was a bad one as it overcomes most of the points made above and led to the club letting a valuable asset go fo free, which I don’t believe any rules would have required us to do
Because that’s not true....

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by Tamworth Tiger » 28 Apr 2021, 20:15

Seems to be par for the course on this Forum then. Can’t believe I’ve just wasted my life posting on this pointless topic.

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by HuddsTigers » 28 Apr 2021, 20:33

We offered Hardaker a contract on less money but he rejected it as it wouldn't cover his bills.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/r ... act-832764

He could have stayed and repaid the fans but he claims that the contract was too low compared to his solicitor costs.
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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by nottinghamtiger » 28 Apr 2021, 20:54

HuddsTigers wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 20:33 We offered Hardaker a contract on less money but he rejected it as it wouldn't cover his bills.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/r ... act-832764

He could have stayed and repaid the fans but he claims that the contract was too low compared to his solicitor costs.
Yep. In one breath he says:
“I tried to stay there and I said, ‘Look, can you keep me on, pay me minimum wage, can you keep me on..?”
Then in the next breath, despite just claiming he was so keen to stay that he would accept the minimum wage:
“They did offer me a contract but it was a low one.”

As a club, we are far better off without him.

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by Lofthouse Tiger » 28 Apr 2021, 21:57

Don’t we all take a job to pay the bills? Wouldn’t we all look for the best deal to make things easier? People like Hardaker don’t have a concience or any real loyalty because if he did he would never have ended up at Cas n the first place.

He was fantastic to watch for us and played a big part in us winning the LLS but an even bigger part in us losing the GF.

Have to agree the best thing was to get rid and a clean break regardless of what he has done since.

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by FIat Capper » 29 Apr 2021, 12:37

I've never been a fan of cutting my nose off to spite my face.

Anyway, done and dusted unlike Steve Gill's future career...

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by mart0042 » 30 Apr 2021, 10:27

on side wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 10:21
mart0042 wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 10:08 Gill did the right thing for the club. He didn't cost us, zak did.

And people saying zaks a changed man while at Wigan, when did the drunk driving /golf club stuff happen? He wasn't at Cas then.
Since he, as, had a, child he as, definitely changed having a team off little angels doing nothing wrong socialy won't put trophys in cabinet for sure 😂 😂 maybe you want Sunday church school players lol is joke
No, I want us to win.

But he's changed now, you say, but not then. When he was our player.

There's many stories of people finding themselves and a new way. That's great for them now, but not us then. The £175k doesn't come back to us now he's a changed man.

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by mart0042 » 30 Apr 2021, 11:43

on side wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 10:21
mart0042 wrote: 28 Apr 2021, 10:08 Gill did the right thing for the club. He didn't cost us, zak did.

And people saying zaks a changed man while at Wigan, when did the drunk driving /golf club stuff happen? He wasn't at Cas then.
Since he, as, had a, child he as, definitely changed having a team off little angels doing nothing wrong socialy won't put trophys in cabinet for sure 😂 😂 maybe you want Sunday church school players lol is joke
No, I want us to win.

But he's changed now, you say, but not then. When he was our player.

There's many stories of people finding themselves and a new way. That's great for them now, but not us then. The £175k doesn't come back to us now he's a changed man.

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by tizer » 30 Apr 2021, 18:19

Zak wanted no money when he was suspended, just wanted a contact after the suspension finished which sg other was 50% of is wage so smtm had said so smtm got a deal with wigan then cas came back in for him and offered him the same money he was on ,but he had signed to wigan cas wanted him to tell wigan he didn't want to go there.

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by Tigers1926 » 01 May 2021, 18:51

Hindsight, what a wonderful thing. Cas did what they thought was right at the time and what the fans wanted too. He cost us more than likely the grand final because he couldn't keep off the recreational stuff until after the GF. It's allrate fans saying we made a mistake because look at him now, but we already knew he is a great fullback. We have to let it go (and I'm not singing the song) and get on with who we have now, and in my eyes it ain't bad. As for Steve, who knows, but what will be will be. Cas forever, forever Cas 🐯

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by Tiger53 » 01 May 2021, 19:10

👍👍👍👍

The guy robbed us of our best chance ever of being champions ( as it is currently defined, for me we were champions because we were top of the league by a country mile ).

Regardless of what Hardaker does from now on he will always be second rate due to his behaviour in 2017.

Steve Gill was right 100%.

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by Tigers1926 » 01 May 2021, 21:54

Your not wrong Tiger53, in 2017 we were the Champions 💪👊👍🐯

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Re: STEVE GILL

Post by LeagueLeaders » 01 May 2021, 22:05

Tiger53 wrote: 01 May 2021, 19:10 👍👍👍👍

The guy robbed us of our best chance ever of being champions ( as it is currently defined, for me we were champions because we were top of the league by a country mile ).

Regardless of what Hardaker does from now on he will always be second rate due to his behaviour in 2017.

Steve Gill was right 100%.
He's also a big reason for why we got there. Too easy to say that he cost us it but he was great up until that point, it's just a shame it had to be discovered before the most important game Cas have ever played. Let's be honest tho, it was a bad performance and no team should fall apart that badly from missing one man

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