2020 Squad

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by tigerfeat » 04 Oct 2019, 09:17

I agree to a certain extent but most people thought matautia was a good signing most people thought Blair was a good signing most people agreed it was correct to extend the contracts of the likes of Eden Mcshane Milner Massey and co after 2017 Wardle was playing well in the Nrl
I don't think Wells is the right man in place I've said that before but it's only fair to point out it's easy to be wise after the event
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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by chief193 » 04 Oct 2019, 09:23

braytontiger wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 08:55
chief193 wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 08:50 The comparisons to 1999 are scary, now like then the core of our good team are drifting away to be replaced with sub standard replacements. The final straw back is 2002 was when Danny Orr left us to be replaced with an aging half who ultimately got injured early and we never recovered leading to our relegation. Luke has just left!!!
Super league was stale in 2016 and had become a boring forwards game as popularised by Wigan and Hull, in 2017 we caught everyone out with a brand of passing rugby that everyone else who had brought in big packs couldn’t cope with. Everyone plays the way we did now it’s just a fact that the clubs above us have brought in better players than us in the key roles of the system we popularised.
Correct add in that Stuart raper also failed to see the importance of youth development. Certainly is history repeating it’s self, I’m not sure it will end in relegation this time but it could. With Toronto coming in and both Leeds and HKR. Getting their act together somebody as to go and the margins are that close it really could be anyone who takes their eye off the ball or they become complacent.
I agree I don’t really see us being relegated but a few games either way this year and we would have been in the mix down there. Ifs and buts I know as a few games the other way and we could have been second.
The general quality of SL this year has been poor, with the exception of STs every team has had a really bad patch where they looked awful, we just need to be very wary that everyone else steps on and we don’t

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by nottinghamtiger » 04 Oct 2019, 09:37

tigerfeat wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:17 I agree to a certain extent but most people thought matautia was a good signing most people thought Blair was a good signing most people agreed it was correct to extend the contracts of the likes of Eden Mcshane Milner Massey and co after 2017 Wardle was playing well in the Nrl
I don't think Wells is the right man in place I've said that before but it's only fair to point out it's easy to be wise after the event
I agree to some extent. My issue has been retention rather than recruitment, and the length of contracts that we gave average or injury-prone players.
James Clare had his contract extended after only playing nine game. Why did we give him a two-year deal to the end of 2021 after only nine games?
Ollie Holmes got a contract extension in early 2018 that takes him to the end of 2021. He had only played 14 games in 2016 and 11 games in 2017. It was madness to give a player who had played so few games such a long contract, and no surprise he’s barely played this year.
Alex Foster - where do we start? He signed a two year contract in 2017 that took him to the end of 2019. For some bizarre reason, we then gave him another contract in 2018, even though he still had over eighteen months on his current deal! Why? We’ve given him a deal to the end of 2021 after such a short time at the club, and when he was under contract anyway! Since he signed his most recent contract, he’s played 6 games. If we hadn’t rushed in with an unnecessary contract, we would have had much more flexibility.
Michael Shenton - giving any player a three year contract that doesn’t end until he is 36 is just ridiculous. He deserved to continue his career at the time he signed his contract, but we should have learnt from Andy Lynch how quickly excellent players can deteriorate with age. Three years was just stupid.
Unfortunately, retentions and recruitment go hand-in-hand. In a salary-capped sport, retaining a player has a direct impact on a club’s ability to recruit new ones. We’ve tied our hands by giving long contracts to players who quite frankly hadn’t earned them.

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by Tamworth Tiger » 04 Oct 2019, 10:41

chief193 wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 08:50 The comparisons to 1999 are scary, now like then the core of our good team are drifting away to be replaced with sub standard replacements. The final straw back is 2002 was when Danny Orr left us to be replaced with an aging half who ultimately got injured
Who was the half? Remember Mitch Healey around that time but didn’t he come in and play alongside Danny for a while and stayed after he left. I thought he was OK, so who was the other one, Sheridan?

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by classycas57 » 04 Oct 2019, 10:46

nottinghamtiger wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:37
tigerfeat wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:17 I agree to a certain extent but most people thought matautia was a good signing most people thought Blair was a good signing most people agreed it was correct to extend the contracts of the likes of Eden Mcshane Milner Massey and co after 2017 Wardle was playing well in the Nrl
I don't think Wells is the right man in place I've said that before but it's only fair to point out it's easy to be wise after the event
I agree to some extent. My issue has been retention rather than recruitment, and the length of contracts that we gave average or injury-prone players.
James Clare had his contract extended after only playing nine game. Why did we give him a two-year deal to the end of 2021 after only nine games?
Ollie Holmes got a contract extension in early 2018 that takes him to the end of 2021. He had only played 14 games in 2016 and 11 games in 2017. It was madness to give a player who had played so few games such a long contract, and no surprise he’s barely played this year.
Alex Foster - where do we start? He signed a two year contract in 2017 that took him to the end of 2019. For some bizarre reason, we then gave him another contract in 2018, even though he still had over eighteen months on his current deal! Why? We’ve given him a deal to the end of 2021 after such a short time at the club, and when he was under contract anyway! Since he signed his most recent contract, he’s played 6 games. If we hadn’t rushed in with an unnecessary contract, we would have had much more flexibility.
Michael Shenton - giving any player a three year contract that doesn’t end until he is 36 is just ridiculous. He deserved to continue his career at the time he signed his contract, but we should have learnt from Andy Lynch how quickly excellent players can deteriorate with age. Three years was just stupid.
Unfortunately, retentions and recruitment go hand-in-hand. In a salary-capped sport, retaining a player has a direct impact on a club’s ability to recruit new ones. We’ve tied our hands by giving long contracts to players who quite frankly hadn’t earned them.
Couldn't agree more notts

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by duke street 10 » 04 Oct 2019, 10:56

Tamworth Tiger wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 10:41
chief193 wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 08:50 The comparisons to 1999 are scary, now like then the core of our good team are drifting away to be replaced with sub standard replacements. The final straw back is 2002 was when Danny Orr left us to be replaced with an aging half who ultimately got injured
Who was the half? Remember Mitch Healey around that time but didn’t he come in and play alongside Danny for a while and stayed after he left. I thought he was OK, so who was the other one, Sheridan?
I remember Sheridan didn't play much around that time. There was Sean Rudder for a short spell,we tried Andy Kain for a while as well.

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by duke street 10 » 04 Oct 2019, 10:59

classycas57 wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 10:46
nottinghamtiger wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:37
tigerfeat wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:17 I agree to a certain extent but most people thought matautia was a good signing most people thought Blair was a good signing most people agreed it was correct to extend the contracts of the likes of Eden Mcshane Milner Massey and co after 2017 Wardle was playing well in the Nrl
I don't think Wells is the right man in place I've said that before but it's only fair to point out it's easy to be wise after the event
I agree to some extent. My issue has been retention rather than recruitment, and the length of contracts that we gave average or injury-prone players.
James Clare had his contract extended after only playing nine game. Why did we give him a two-year deal to the end of 2021 after only nine games?
Ollie Holmes got a contract extension in early 2018 that takes him to the end of 2021. He had only played 14 games in 2016 and 11 games in 2017. It was madness to give a player who had played so few games such a long contract, and no surprise he’s barely played this year.
Alex Foster - where do we start? He signed a two year contract in 2017 that took him to the end of 2019. For some bizarre reason, we then gave him another contract in 2018, even though he still had over eighteen months on his current deal! Why? We’ve given him a deal to the end of 2021 after such a short time at the club, and when he was under contract anyway! Since he signed his most recent contract, he’s played 6 games. If we hadn’t rushed in with an unnecessary contract, we would have had much more flexibility.
Michael Shenton - giving any player a three year contract that doesn’t end until he is 36 is just ridiculous. He deserved to continue his career at the time he signed his contract, but we should have learnt from Andy Lynch how quickly excellent players can deteriorate with age. Three years was just stupid.
Unfortunately, retentions and recruitment go hand-in-hand. In a salary-capped sport, retaining a player has a direct impact on a club’s ability to recruit new ones. We’ve tied our hands by giving long contracts to players who quite frankly hadn’t earned them.
Couldn't agree more notts
On top of the good post by Notts, we have question marks over the overseas quota, Will Jesse come back?, will Blair improve?, will Millington & Moors make it through 2020?, is Pete M worth a quota place?

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by chief193 » 04 Oct 2019, 11:05

Tamworth Tiger wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 10:41
chief193 wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 08:50 The comparisons to 1999 are scary, now like then the core of our good team are drifting away to be replaced with sub standard replacements. The final straw back is 2002 was when Danny Orr left us to be replaced with an aging half who ultimately got injured
Who was the half? Remember Mitch Healey around that time but didn’t he come in and play alongside Danny for a while and stayed after he left. I thought he was OK, so who was the other one, Sheridan?
It was Sheridan mate, busted his shoulder at Hull in the cup and never player again for us

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by chief193 » 04 Oct 2019, 11:06

nottinghamtiger wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:37
tigerfeat wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:17 I agree to a certain extent but most people thought matautia was a good signing most people thought Blair was a good signing most people agreed it was correct to extend the contracts of the likes of Eden Mcshane Milner Massey and co after 2017 Wardle was playing well in the Nrl
I don't think Wells is the right man in place I've said that before but it's only fair to point out it's easy to be wise after the event
I agree to some extent. My issue has been retention rather than recruitment, and the length of contracts that we gave average or injury-prone players.
James Clare had his contract extended after only playing nine game. Why did we give him a two-year deal to the end of 2021 after only nine games?
Ollie Holmes got a contract extension in early 2018 that takes him to the end of 2021. He had only played 14 games in 2016 and 11 games in 2017. It was madness to give a player who had played so few games such a long contract, and no surprise he’s barely played this year.
Alex Foster - where do we start? He signed a two year contract in 2017 that took him to the end of 2019. For some bizarre reason, we then gave him another contract in 2018, even though he still had over eighteen months on his current deal! Why? We’ve given him a deal to the end of 2021 after such a short time at the club, and when he was under contract anyway! Since he signed his most recent contract, he’s played 6 games. If we hadn’t rushed in with an unnecessary contract, we would have had much more flexibility.
Michael Shenton - giving any player a three year contract that doesn’t end until he is 36 is just ridiculous. He deserved to continue his career at the time he signed his contract, but we should have learnt from Andy Lynch how quickly excellent players can deteriorate with age. Three years was just stupid.
Unfortunately, retentions and recruitment go hand-in-hand. In a salary-capped sport, retaining a player has a direct impact on a club’s ability to recruit new ones. We’ve tied our hands by giving long contracts to players who quite frankly hadn’t earned them.
Spot on that mate 👍

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by braytontiger » 04 Oct 2019, 11:30

nottinghamtiger wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:37
tigerfeat wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:17 I agree to a certain extent but most people thought matautia was a good signing most people thought Blair was a good signing most people agreed it was correct to extend the contracts of the likes of Eden Mcshane Milner Massey and co after 2017 Wardle was playing well in the Nrl
I don't think Wells is the right man in place I've said that before but it's only fair to point out it's easy to be wise after the event
I agree to some extent. My issue has been retention rather than recruitment, and the length of contracts that we gave average or injury-prone players.
James Clare had his contract extended after only playing nine game. Why did we give him a two-year deal to the end of 2021 after only nine games?
Ollie Holmes got a contract extension in early 2018 that takes him to the end of 2021. He had only played 14 games in 2016 and 11 games in 2017. It was madness to give a player who had played so few games such a long contract, and no surprise he’s barely played this year.
Alex Foster - where do we start? He signed a two year contract in 2017 that took him to the end of 2019. For some bizarre reason, we then gave him another contract in 2018, even though he still had over eighteen months on his current deal! Why? We’ve given him a deal to the end of 2021 after such a short time at the club, and when he was under contract anyway! Since he signed his most recent contract, he’s played 6 games. If we hadn’t rushed in with an unnecessary contract, we would have had much more flexibility.
Michael Shenton - giving any player a three year contract that doesn’t end until he is 36 is just ridiculous. He deserved to continue his career at the time he signed his contract, but we should have learnt from Andy Lynch how quickly excellent players can deteriorate with age. Three years was just stupid.
Unfortunately, retentions and recruitment go hand-in-hand. In a salary-capped sport, retaining a player has a direct impact on a club’s ability to recruit new ones. We’ve tied our hands by giving long contracts to players who quite frankly hadn’t earned them.
You can only assume that the agent Craig Harrison could sell ice to the eskimos or we are unbelievably gullible or both.

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by nottinghamtiger » 04 Oct 2019, 11:51

braytontiger wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 11:30
nottinghamtiger wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:37
tigerfeat wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:17 I agree to a certain extent but most people thought matautia was a good signing most people thought Blair was a good signing most people agreed it was correct to extend the contracts of the likes of Eden Mcshane Milner Massey and co after 2017 Wardle was playing well in the Nrl
I don't think Wells is the right man in place I've said that before but it's only fair to point out it's easy to be wise after the event
I agree to some extent. My issue has been retention rather than recruitment, and the length of contracts that we gave average or injury-prone players.
James Clare had his contract extended after only playing nine game. Why did we give him a two-year deal to the end of 2021 after only nine games?
Ollie Holmes got a contract extension in early 2018 that takes him to the end of 2021. He had only played 14 games in 2016 and 11 games in 2017. It was madness to give a player who had played so few games such a long contract, and no surprise he’s barely played this year.
Alex Foster - where do we start? He signed a two year contract in 2017 that took him to the end of 2019. For some bizarre reason, we then gave him another contract in 2018, even though he still had over eighteen months on his current deal! Why? We’ve given him a deal to the end of 2021 after such a short time at the club, and when he was under contract anyway! Since he signed his most recent contract, he’s played 6 games. If we hadn’t rushed in with an unnecessary contract, we would have had much more flexibility.
Michael Shenton - giving any player a three year contract that doesn’t end until he is 36 is just ridiculous. He deserved to continue his career at the time he signed his contract, but we should have learnt from Andy Lynch how quickly excellent players can deteriorate with age. Three years was just stupid.
Unfortunately, retentions and recruitment go hand-in-hand. In a salary-capped sport, retaining a player has a direct impact on a club’s ability to recruit new ones. We’ve tied our hands by giving long contracts to players who quite frankly hadn’t earned them.
You can only assume that the agent Craig Harrison could sell ice to the eskimos or we are unbelievably gullible or both.
Well it doesn't happen at other clubs, so I'm going with 'unbelievably gullible'.

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by HuddsTigers » 04 Oct 2019, 12:48

Shenton's contract ends at the end of 2021 so he'll be 35, not 36. The problem that we have is that we don't know the detail of what his (or anyone's) salary will be for the final years, or indeed what terms if it is based on (e.g. it could be that it's more of an off-field role in 2021 and a squad back-up player when needed).

When you look at others it does look slightly bizarre. The more I hear/see of Craig Harrison and the general influence he has in the game, I do wonder how much of an effect he has in terms of making the club panic thinking they're going to lose their best players. I wonder if we're seen as a stepping stone club by him for his players.

Let's not forget, he himself said in the summer that Gale would be at Cas next season. There's no doubting he's a good agent and advocate of the game. But I think we need to grow some spine and start standing up to him a bit.
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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by tigerfeat » 04 Oct 2019, 13:01

the fact hes Powells agent as well may have a bearing on things it may not...but Wells should be taking no crap off him the bloke would shaft the club without thinking about it if it suited him
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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by nottinghamtiger » 04 Oct 2019, 13:11

HuddsTigers wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 12:48 Shenton's contract ends at the end of 2021 so he'll be 35, not 36. The problem that we have is that we don't know the detail of what his (or anyone's) salary will be for the final years, or indeed what terms if it is based on (e.g. it could be that it's more of an off-field role in 2021 and a squad back-up player when needed.
35/36. It's equally as ridiculous.
I guess we don't know the value of any contract, let alone for each year. But it does't change the fact that that a player won't be playing for nothing, so therefore take up a proportion of the salary cap that could be used for recruitment.
The fact is we've given long-term contracts to players who either haven't proven themselves on the field (eg Clare), have barely played due to injury (eg Holmes), are too old to warrant the length of contract they have been given (Shenton) or who had recently signed a deal that just didn't need renewing (Foster).
And now seems an apt time to mention Jamie Ellis. A three year contract for a player who wasn't wanted by his current club, and who sent him on loan to a Championship team even though they only had one other half back, was another example of tying our hands. I was willing to go with the club signing him, but not for three years! You won't find another example of a Super League club giving an unwanted Championship player a three-year contract.

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by jackknife » 04 Oct 2019, 13:25

Rankin
Feki
Blair
Shenton / Mata’utia
Eden
Trueman
Richardson
Watts
Mcshane
Smith
Holmes
McMeeken
Massey

Milner
Millington
Moors
Jsl

That would be my strongest 17 but i would change players regularly to keep everyone fresh
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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by Flat Capper » 04 Oct 2019, 13:28

As with every aspect in life, contract negotiation is a skill that some are better at than others but there are many other factors to take into consideration.

Primarily, you do not want to be recruiting 10+ players every season as this will erode any chance of developing a squad that can play together effectively, have understanding of each other and build squad morale. It is inevitable some player will move on and some of that has to be the choice of the Club.

Every year each player should be assessed and their use to the team thoroughly examined. During this process you may well decide that someone like Shenton is worthy of another contract but be cautious of how long you believe the new contract should be. The player and his agent turn around and say far enough, I've got a better offer from so and so and therefore I'm off. That's another one gone that needs replacing and possibly enticing away from another Club.

Apply that across the board and you do end up losing a sizable proportion of the squad and the moaning fans so on social media screaming about the Club doing nothing to retain players, no ambition, and so on.

I can only assume Powell saw enough value in the players mentioned to warrant the contracts they were offered and we have to judge the Club on its success or failures as a result.
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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by smarty_tiger » 04 Oct 2019, 13:34

nottinghamtiger wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 13:11
HuddsTigers wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 12:48 Shenton's contract ends at the end of 2021 so he'll be 35, not 36. The problem that we have is that we don't know the detail of what his (or anyone's) salary will be for the final years, or indeed what terms if it is based on (e.g. it could be that it's more of an off-field role in 2021 and a squad back-up player when needed.
35/36. It's equally as ridiculous.
I guess we don't know the value of any contract, let alone for each year. But it does't change the fact that that a player won't be playing for nothing, so therefore take up a proportion of the salary cap that could be used for recruitment.
The fact is we've given long-term contracts to players who either haven't proven themselves on the field (eg Clare), have barely played due to injury (eg Holmes), are too old to warrant the length of contract they have been given (Shenton) or who had recently signed a deal that just didn't need renewing (Foster).
And now seems an apt time to mention Jamie Ellis. A three year contract for a player who wasn't wanted by his current club, and who sent him on loan to a Championship team even though they only had one other half back, was another example of tying our hands. I was willing to go with the club signing him, but not for three years! You won't find another example of a Super League club giving an unwanted Championship player a three-year contract.
Great posts notts and a perfect example of showing clear incompetencies of our club. It is time the mentality of our recruitment and retention changes.

Not only does it handicap future recruitment, giving such long deals to ageing or lower league squad players, but it is sending the wrong message to both players and agents.

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by nottinghamtiger » 04 Oct 2019, 14:09

Flat Capper wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 13:28 The player and his agent turn around and say far enough, I've got a better offer from so and so and therefore I'm off. That's another one gone that needs replacing and possibly enticing away from another Club.
I think you've hit the nail on the head of why we are perceived as a soft touch in terms of contracts.
There are times the club needs to be telling players to accept what is offered or take their chances of getting a better deal elsewhere.
I just can't believe that other clubs would offer a Championship half-back a three-year deal, or a player who has only played 14 games in two years a three-year deal or offer a multi-year contract to a player who will be 35 by the end of it.
And that doesn't explain renewing Foster's deal in 2018 when he had only signed one in 2017 that didn't end until 2019.
I get the feeling we are easily "played" by the players' agents. It's about time we called their bluff, as I very much doubt they have a much better offer on the table.

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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by Mysterio » 04 Oct 2019, 14:10

nottinghamtiger wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:37
tigerfeat wrote: 04 Oct 2019, 09:17 I agree to a certain extent but most people thought matautia was a good signing most people thought Blair was a good signing most people agreed it was correct to extend the contracts of the likes of Eden Mcshane Milner Massey and co after 2017 Wardle was playing well in the Nrl
I don't think Wells is the right man in place I've said that before but it's only fair to point out it's easy to be wise after the event
I agree to some extent. My issue has been retention rather than recruitment, and the length of contracts that we gave average or injury-prone players.
James Clare had his contract extended after only playing nine game. Why did we give him a two-year deal to the end of 2021 after only nine games?
Ollie Holmes got a contract extension in early 2018 that takes him to the end of 2021. He had only played 14 games in 2016 and 11 games in 2017. It was madness to give a player who had played so few games such a long contract, and no surprise he’s barely played this year.
Alex Foster - where do we start? He signed a two year contract in 2017 that took him to the end of 2019. For some bizarre reason, we then gave him another contract in 2018, even though he still had over eighteen months on his current deal! Why? We’ve given him a deal to the end of 2021 after such a short time at the club, and when he was under contract anyway! Since he signed his most recent contract, he’s played 6 games. If we hadn’t rushed in with an unnecessary contract, we would have had much more flexibility.
Michael Shenton - giving any player a three year contract that doesn’t end until he is 36 is just ridiculous. He deserved to continue his career at the time he signed his contract, but we should have learnt from Andy Lynch how quickly excellent players can deteriorate with age. Three years was just stupid.
Unfortunately, retentions and recruitment go hand-in-hand. In a salary-capped sport, retaining a player has a direct impact on a club’s ability to recruit new ones. We’ve tied our hands by giving long contracts to players who quite frankly hadn’t earned them.
Fully support this.

I find it in-cred-ible that such incompetence can be created within an organisation that worked so hard to gain momentum in the first place.

MY GOD, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE RESTED ON OUR LAURELS FOLLOWING GOOD SEASONS ONLY TO SINK THROUGH INACTIVITY THE YEARS FOLLOWING? It’s criminal almost.

I’m very disappointed and disillusioned with the club, Daryl included for the first time ever. I love the bloke sincerely but his choices / recruitment and decisions the past 2 years has been found wanting in areas.

I thought we had a cute forward thinking BOD now too; perhaps the one(s) with most clout are the absolutely worst ones to yield it....?

I’m not hopeful for next season. Sorry. I see a battle in the bottom 5 or 6 with us squarely in it.
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Re: 2020 Squad

Post by heritage1926 » 04 Oct 2019, 14:12

What worries me the most out of anything is injuries. Surely we can't go a 3rd year in a row having star players sat out for months, if not a season at a time. Something has to be done about the niggles players keep picking up, especially the same ones.

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