Simply not good enough

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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by Mysterio » 25 Mar 2019, 11:58

flow wrote:
HuddsTigers wrote:Losing Zak makes no difference to our ability to defend.

We have gone from having a right edge of Minikin, Webster, Roberts and McMeeken to Minikin, Foster, Rankin and Holmes.

A Minikin who is a shadow of the 2017 player, his confidence looks shot. Foster who isn’t a centre, Rankin who is half decent but not as defensively solid as Roberts and Holmes who doesn’t look fit and isn’t a right edge player.

A full back can only do so much - it’s the 12 in front that are the problem. Even the best full back in the world wouldn’t have altered that last night.
hudds you some times post rubbish saying zak made no difference we have still not recovered from losing him really made that much difference to back line in attack and defence, was like an extra centre in attack and organised the line for defence. Plus we were getting a lot bigger attendances to watch exciting rugby we played like saints are playing now. And to say rankin is half decent oh dear boy what games you being watching giants must be very happy with swap . Why you a defending clare is not up to standard Bradford and York champ teams dint want him . Your right about minikin gone backwards foster never be a centre like .
Absolutely spot on flow, especially the extra man, he had it off to a tee after only a few weeks and that was a massive concern for me having had it in Dorn. Dorn was tremendous attacking, but look how poor defensively he was -Zak highlighted that change even more and scored worldies too.

Your point about us playing in 2017 like Saints do now is again absolutely bang on!

At the end of 2017 I did say i had a little fear we’d make the same mistakes as in 1994;95 & 1999/00 seasons when we were just a couple of high quality players away from greatness. Because of the current set up in the board room and coaching staff I genuinely thought that we’d push on.

I even suggested selling mcmeeken or Holmes, or Roberts, or picking someone who may well be at their maximum value, if it meant clearing that extra space and bringing monies in for fees and salary cap. I was thinking outside of the box about how we may well be able to take the extra steps needed. We effectively cocked it up tbf and even Daryl takes an element of learning experiences from that.

We’re still thereabouts. This isn’t likelt to be our year, but who knows! On our day we can beat anyone including saints if we have a worldy.

I think we’re in a position throughout the year to really concentrate on 2020. If I was Daryl Jon the board, I’d seriously be going all out to leave no stone unturned in every aspect of being able to reach the level of the wire and saints. Jon wells in particular is the man I’ll be seeing what he does over the next few months up until the start of next season in particular.

I just feel we’re at a crossroads right now. I so want us to push on again. It’s never the finished article, but we can and will get to the standards we all crave if we stay together, stay calm but make tough decisions.

In terms of Rankin, there’s definitely a player in there, but sadly his defence is worse than Ellis’. I lose a lot of respect for a player who doesn’t seem to want to learn how to tackle properly - it’s not hard to learn how to tackle properly, it really isn’t.
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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by tigerfeat » 25 Mar 2019, 12:03

Good post think you pretty much nailed it there ...
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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by Frankas » 25 Mar 2019, 13:39

If we had sold McMeeken , or Homes the fans would have gone mad, and accused the club of going back to a selling club like we use to be. Has for Zak, he was a great player for us, but he destroyed the clubs spirit, by taking drugs, and getting banned a few days before our first ever grand final. He cost Cas that game .

We have never had it has good as we have in the last few years, and at the moment we aren't at our best, but we are the third best team in SL, winning 5 and loosing 2. Not too shabby for a team who started the season without 3 of our first choice halfbacks, and another 3 or 4 of our first choice 17.

In a few years we have become a club from the brink of oblivion, to one of the best teams in SL.
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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by HuddsTigers » 25 Mar 2019, 13:40

flow wrote:
HuddsTigers wrote:Losing Zak makes no difference to our ability to defend.

We have gone from having a right edge of Minikin, Webster, Roberts and McMeeken to Minikin, Foster, Rankin and Holmes.

A Minikin who is a shadow of the 2017 player, his confidence looks shot. Foster who isn’t a centre, Rankin who is half decent but not as defensively solid as Roberts and Holmes who doesn’t look fit and isn’t a right edge player.

A full back can only do so much - it’s the 12 in front that are the problem. Even the best full back in the world wouldn’t have altered that last night.
hudds you some times post rubbish saying zak made no difference we have still not recovered from losing him really made that much difference to back line in attack and defence, was like an extra centre in attack and organised the line for defence. Plus we were getting a lot bigger attendances to watch exciting rugby we played like saints are playing now. And to say rankin is half decent oh dear boy what games you being watching giants must be very happy with swap . Why you a defending clare is not up to standard Bradford and York champ teams dint want him . Your right about minikin gone backwards foster never be a centre like .

Flow, I think you need to learn basic comprehension. I never said "Zak made no difference", I said "losing Zak makes no difference to our ability to defend." It doesn't. Defence comes from attitude and I've always said, if the 12 men in front of your full-back are strong enough then a full-back's job becomes so much easier.

Zak wouldn't have made a difference in us missing 45 tackles and several one on ones on our own line against Saints. It's ridiculous to assume he would.

Attendances are fluid. How many Sunday games did we have in 2017 versus this year when we have something like 14/17 games on TV?

Rankin is half-decent and he did have a decent game versus Saints (which is actually what I said) - he wasn't the worst by any stretch of imagination. He's best when he's running at defences and making them think. The ball has to go right for him to do that though. As for his defence, all half-backs have struggles in this area. Ben Roberts was probably one half-back that didn't and even Truey is stepping up to the plate now. Half-backs have been known as turnstiles for yonks.

As for Clare, it would help if you bothered to research facts. He was on loan at York and he left Bradford due to their financial issues instead signing for Leigh for the security it provided.
Last edited by HuddsTigers on 25 Mar 2019, 13:42, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by cogito ergo sum » 25 Mar 2019, 13:41

Frankas wrote:If we had sold McMeeken , or Homes the fans would have gone mad, and accused the club of going back to a selling club like we use to be. Has for Zak, he was a great player for us, but he destroyed the clubs spirit, by taking drugs, and getting banned a few days before our first ever grand final. He cost Cas that game .

We have never had it has good as we have in the last few years, and at the moment we aren't at our best, but we are the third best team in SL, winning 5 and loosing 2. Not too shabby for a team who started the season without 3 of our first choice halfbacks, and another 3 or 4 of our first choice 17.

In a few years we have become a club from the brink of oblivion, to one of the best teams in SL.
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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by HuddsTigers » 25 Mar 2019, 13:45

For me, we are a centre and prop forward of being a top of the table side. Get 2 people for those positions and I can see us winning something.

I'd take a winger as well but maybe with a better centre inside, Minikin and/or Clare may be able to do their own job more effectively.
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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by tigerfeat » 25 Mar 2019, 13:49

Frankas wrote:If we had sold McMeeken , or Homes the fans would have gone mad, and accused the club of going back to a selling club like we use to be. Has for Zak, he was a great player for us, but he destroyed the clubs spirit, by taking drugs, and getting banned a few days before our first ever grand final. He cost Cas that game .

We have never had it has good as we have in the last few years, and at the moment we aren't at our best, but we are the third best team in SL, winning 5 and loosing 2. Not too shabby for a team who started the season without 3 of our first choice halfbacks, and another 3 or 4 of our first choice 17.

In a few years we have become a club from the brink of oblivion, to one of the best teams in SL.
Nonsense to say we lost the grand final because of a player that never played yes he dropped us in it but we were still 8 points favourites to win the game we'd beaten leeds 8 or 9 names on the trot most of them hammerings the players that turned out had more than enough in there locker to beat leeds that day
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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by HuddsTigers » 25 Mar 2019, 13:57

I agree with the above. There are several problems in the final but full-back is only a small part.

* Wet conditions - we tried to play adventurously in the conditions and it backfired
* Our forwards - they failed to keep hold of the ball consistently turning the ball over
* Wingers - failed to deal with kicks from Leeds and got beat in the air leading to some soft tries

Zak doing what he did disrupted training and the build up to it but if you don't do the basics right, everything else is just an added effect.
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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by Frankas » 25 Mar 2019, 13:59

Not nonsense at all, the team was guttered, the same thing happened to us a few years before that when a player thought it was OK to mess about with another players wife, we wen't to Catalan, and got hammered, and it lost us the LLS, So yes we were a shadow of the team what had got us to the final.
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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by fords » 25 Mar 2019, 14:21

Mysterio wrote:
flow wrote:
HuddsTigers wrote:Losing Zak makes no difference to our ability to defend.

We have gone from having a right edge of Minikin, Webster, Roberts and McMeeken to Minikin, Foster, Rankin and Holmes.

A Minikin who is a shadow of the 2017 player, his confidence looks shot. Foster who isn’t a centre, Rankin who is half decent but not as defensively solid as Roberts and Holmes who doesn’t look fit and isn’t a right edge player.

A full back can only do so much - it’s the 12 in front that are the problem. Even the best full back in the world wouldn’t have altered that last night.
hudds you some times post rubbish saying zak made no difference we have still not recovered from losing him really made that much difference to back line in attack and defence, was like an extra centre in attack and organised the line for defence. Plus we were getting a lot bigger attendances to watch exciting rugby we played like saints are playing now. And to say rankin is half decent oh dear boy what games you being watching giants must be very happy with swap . Why you a defending clare is not up to standard Bradford and York champ teams dint want him . Your right about minikin gone backwards foster never be a centre like .
Absolutely spot on flow, especially the extra man, he had it off to a tee after only a few weeks and that was a massive concern for me having had it in Dorn. Dorn was tremendous attacking, but look how poor defensively he was -Zak highlighted that change even more and scored worldies too.

Your point about us playing in 2017 like Saints do now is again absolutely bang on!

At the end of 2017 I did say i had a little fear we’d make the same mistakes as in 1994;95 & 1999/00 seasons when we were just a couple of high quality players away from greatness. Because of the current set up in the board room and coaching staff I genuinely thought that we’d push on.

I even suggested selling mcmeeken or Holmes, or Roberts, or picking someone who may well be at their maximum value, if it meant clearing that extra space and bringing monies in for fees and salary cap. I was thinking outside of the box about how we may well be able to take the extra steps needed. We effectively cocked it up tbf and even Daryl takes an element of learning experiences from that.

We’re still thereabouts. This isn’t likelt to be our year, but who knows! On our day we can beat anyone including saints if we have a worldy.

I think we’re in a position throughout the year to really concentrate on 2020. If I was Daryl Jon the board, I’d seriously be going all out to leave no stone unturned in every aspect of being able to reach the level of the wire and saints. Jon wells in particular is the man I’ll be seeing what he does over the next few months up until the start of next season in particular.

I just feel we’re at a crossroads right now. I so want us to push on again. It’s never the finished article, but we can and will get to the standards we all crave if we stay together, stay calm but make tough decisions.

In terms of Rankin, there’s definitely a player in there, but sadly his defence is worse than Ellis’. I lose a lot of respect for a player who doesn’t seem to want to learn how to tackle properly - it’s not hard to learn how to tackle properly, it really isn’t.
Few things

1. Seen this a few times now. People going on about 2020 being a big year. Why is that then. The team will be 95% the same as now. Some fringe players will go.

2. Zak in the team no doubt we were better, alot. But now he is not that doesnt stop people from being able to tackle which most of the team can no longer do.

3. Rankin is doing ok for me. Better than ellis.

4. We dont need 6 back rowers. 2 need to go and money used elsewhere

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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by heritage1926 » 25 Mar 2019, 14:33

fords wrote:4. We dont need 6 back rowers. 2 need to go and money used elsewhere
Correct.

McMeekan and JSL would be my starting back rowers. Foster and Cook backs ups (would always have these 2 on the bench or there about), especially as Cook can play prop and Foster can cover a few positions. Unfortunately for me, Holmes would be far down the pecking order, he's pretty one dimensional, can't cover many positions and lacks speed/offload game to be a good back rower like the above can. I used to think he got in on the fact his defence was pretty solid, but he missed a fair few on Friday alone.

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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by SREGITSAC » 25 Mar 2019, 15:00

heritage1926 wrote:
fords wrote:4. We dont need 6 back rowers. 2 need to go and money used elsewhere
Correct.

McMeekan and JSL would be my starting back rowers. Foster and Cook backs ups (would always have these 2 on the bench or there about), especially as Cook can play prop and Foster can cover a few positions. Unfortunately for me, Holmes would be far down the pecking order, he's pretty one dimensional, can't cover many positions and lacks speed/offload game to be a good back rower like the above can. I used to think he got in on the fact his defence was pretty solid, but he missed a fair few on Friday alone.
Made 42 tackles and missed 5, not a bad showing but he didn’t do a lot going forward.

Wasn’t the biggest offender of missing tackles

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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by Flat Capper » 25 Mar 2019, 15:46

You do need a large number of forwards to help cover injuries and I think we have the right mix of forwards and backs. It's just that some are now earning contract extensions on the back of 2017 and to be frank, some are no longer worth it. They aren't bad players but not good enough to move us to the next level.

The better than average player will have around 2/3 years at their peak and nothing more. Only a select few can maintain that for a full career and for me we have too many almost men.
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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by old cas lass » 25 Mar 2019, 15:53

I think we have to realise Holmes as only played 2 games this season.
The lad had a big operation on his shoulder, I think we should give him 2/3 more games before we start slating him.
My main concern in Adam Milner who since he signed his contract as sat back and looks a shadow of his 2017 performances.

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Re: Simply not good enough

Post by heritage1926 » 25 Mar 2019, 16:08

old cas lass wrote:I think we have to realise Holmes as only played 2 games this season.
The lad had a big operation on his shoulder, I think we should give him 2/3 more games before we start slating him.
My main concern in Adam Milner who since he signed his contract as sat back and looks a shadow of his 2017 performances.
Not slating him, simply pointing out the differences between him and the other players in his position.

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