Scrums

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Re: Scrums

Post by cogito ergo sum » 19 Mar 2019, 11:23

old cas lass wrote:Hated the old scrums, was a right melee, at least we know who will get the ball, whoever is putting it in. Might be one against the head now and again, which makes it special.
I agree. Watch the old games and the scrums were pot luck and a mess. Hookers virtually lay down, sometimes the ball couldn't find a way in.

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Re: Scrums

Post by Hepworth7 » 19 Mar 2019, 21:24

Let's face it,the scrums now are a joke,not contested, a heel against the head unheard off and the ball is put into the second row. Tactically they allow you to put whoever the hell you want in there so you can run set plays,useful but not scrummaging in any sense. They're simply a nod to the origins of the game and as much symbolic as owt else. Far from being a mess,scrums were an art form,populated by hard but skilfull men who would contort their bodies to win ball back while the opposition knocked seven bells out of you. Hookers like Clive Dickinson and Flash Flanagan were legendary and in the days before six tackles could win games by dominating possession,before I sound too misty eyed and nostalgic,I wouldn't want to go back to those days,the game has moved on,it's faster,more skilful and more entertaining for it. While always being a fan of Dickinson you couldn't in all honesty compare his skill level to a Mcshane or dare I say it Roby,but their roles are different neither would have prospered in the others generation,it's like comparing chalk to cheese. Never saw Dicko putting a deft kick through for someone to run on to,not sure Mcshane has ever hooked a ball in his life. Two players operating in different world's but still Cas legends in their own right.But only one of them could be called a hooker,the other has redefined the position.

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Re: Scrums

Post by gateman » 19 Mar 2019, 21:33

Hepworth7 wrote:Let's face it,the scrums now are a joke,not contested, a heel against the head unheard off and the ball is put into the second row. Tactically they allow you to put whoever the hell you want in there so you can run set plays,useful but not scrummaging in any sense. They're simply a nod to the origins of the game and as much symbolic as owt else. Far from being a mess,scrums were an art form,populated by hard but skilfull men who would contort their bodies to win ball back while the opposition knocked seven bells out of you. Hookers like Clive Dickinson and Flash Flanagan were legendary and in the days before six tackles could win games by dominating possession,before I sound too misty eyed and nostalgic,I wouldn't want to go back to those days,the game has moved on,it's faster,more skilful and more entertaining for it. While always being a fan of Dickinson you couldn't in all honesty compare his skill level to a Mcshane or dare I say it Roby,but their roles are different neither would have prospered in the others generation,it's like comparing chalk to cheese. Never saw Dicko putting a deft kick through for someone to run on to,not sure Mcshane has ever hooked a ball in his life. Two players operating in different world's but still Cas legends in their own right.But only one of them could be called a hooker,the other has redefined the position.
Spot on there mate, it looks like you and I have been watching Cas for same number of years, and I suppose like me are still getting the buzz on match days long may it continue

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Re: Scrums

Post by 43s flyer » 19 Mar 2019, 21:44

gateman wrote:
Hepworth7 wrote:Let's face it,the scrums now are a joke,not contested, a heel against the head unheard off and the ball is put into the second row. Tactically they allow you to put whoever the hell you want in there so you can run set plays,useful but not scrummaging in any sense. They're simply a nod to the origins of the game and as much symbolic as owt else. Far from being a mess,scrums were an art form,populated by hard but skilfull men who would contort their bodies to win ball back while the opposition knocked seven bells out of you. Hookers like Clive Dickinson and Flash Flanagan were legendary and in the days before six tackles could win games by dominating possession,before I sound too misty eyed and nostalgic,I wouldn't want to go back to those days,the game has moved on,it's faster,more skilful and more entertaining for it. While always being a fan of Dickinson you couldn't in all honesty compare his skill level to a Mcshane or dare I say it Roby,but their roles are different neither would have prospered in the others generation,it's like comparing chalk to cheese. Never saw Dicko putting a deft kick through for someone to run on to,not sure Mcshane has ever hooked a ball in his life. Two players operating in different world's but still Cas legends in their own right.But only one of them could be called a hooker,the other has redefined the position.
Spot on there mate, it looks like you and I have been watching Cas for same number of years, and I suppose like me are still getting the buzz on match days long may it continue
I remember playing in a pre season trial Fryston U17s vs Cas U17s my first time as hooker, my coach told me take out their hooker (Gary Heatherington) i duly obliged. Next scrum my second row said he was going to put one on the next hooker, Cas had same idea I got hit by the both of them, teeth through bottom and top lip(no gumshields) back then. Had to sup me ale from just one side, the good old days :dance:

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Re: Scrums

Post by Flat Capper » 20 Mar 2019, 13:29

Hepworth7 wrote:Let's face it,the scrums now are a joke,not contested, a heel against the head unheard off and the ball is put into the second row. Tactically they allow you to put whoever the hell you want in there so you can run set plays,useful but not scrummaging in any sense. They're simply a nod to the origins of the game and as much symbolic as owt else. Far from being a mess,scrums were an art form,populated by hard but skilfull men who would contort their bodies to win ball back while the opposition knocked seven bells out of you. Hookers like Clive Dickinson and Flash Flanagan were legendary and in the days before six tackles could win games by dominating possession,before I sound too misty eyed and nostalgic,I wouldn't want to go back to those days,the game has moved on,it's faster,more skilful and more entertaining for it. While always being a fan of Dickinson you couldn't in all honesty compare his skill level to a Mcshane or dare I say it Roby,but their roles are different neither would have prospered in the others generation,it's like comparing chalk to cheese. Never saw Dicko putting a deft kick through for someone to run on to,not sure Mcshane has ever hooked a ball in his life. Two players operating in different world's but still Cas legends in their own right.But only one of them could be called a hooker,the other has redefined the position.
Whilst I appreciate your view that scrums are a "joke", you have explained very well why they have changed and the result is a more open and faster game.

These days, the scrum is merely a way of restarting the game whilst giving priority to the team who didn't carry out the infringement. It means the ball is in and out very quickly to the attacking team whilst giving them a little more space to work with. Very little chance of the game being stopped for re-starts or indeed penalties (we call it Yawnion for a reason!).

It may not be the biff but I'd say it's a different kind of entertainment.
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Re: Scrums

Post by Hepworth7 » 20 Mar 2019, 21:58

Flat Capper wrote:
Hepworth7 wrote:Let's face it,the scrums now are a joke,not contested, a heel against the head unheard off and the ball is put into the second row. Tactically they allow you to put whoever the hell you want in there so you can run set plays,useful but not scrummaging in any sense. They're simply a nod to the origins of the game and as much symbolic as owt else. Far from being a mess,scrums were an art form,populated by hard but skilfull men who would contort their bodies to win ball back while the opposition knocked seven bells out of you. Hookers like Clive Dickinson and Flash Flanagan were legendary and in the days before six tackles could win games by dominating possession,before I sound too misty eyed and nostalgic,I wouldn't want to go back to those days,the game has moved on,it's faster,more skilful and more entertaining for it. While always being a fan of Dickinson you couldn't in all honesty compare his skill level to a Mcshane or dare I say it Roby,but their roles are different neither would have prospered in the others generation,it's like comparing chalk to cheese. Never saw Dicko putting a deft kick through for someone to run on to,not sure Mcshane has ever hooked a ball in his life. Two players operating in different world's but still Cas legends in their own right.But only one of them could be called a hooker,the other has redefined the position.
Whilst I appreciate your view that scrums are a "joke", you have explained very well why they have changed and the result is a more open and faster game.

These days, the scrum is merely a way of restarting the game whilst giving priority to the team who didn't carry out the infringement. It means the ball is in and out very quickly to the attacking team whilst giving them a little more space to work with. Very little chance of the game being stopped for re-starts or indeed penalties (we call it Yawnion for a reason!).

It may not be the biff but I'd say it's a different kind of entertainment.
Totally agree,as I said,wouldn't want to go back to those days,today's game far faster and more open, players then and now play within the rules they are given,each require different skill sets,but I can appreciate both. It's true there were more penalties when scrums were contested but I never remember my enjoyment or excitement being affected, and the scrums never ever degenerated to the level we still see in Union. Must say having an intelligent discussion on this forum is a rarity. Thanks.

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Re: Scrums

Post by 43s flyer » 20 Mar 2019, 22:26

Hepworth7 wrote:
Flat Capper wrote:
Hepworth7 wrote:Let's face it,the scrums now are a joke,not contested, a heel against the head unheard off and the ball is put into the second row. Tactically they allow you to put whoever the hell you want in there so you can run set plays,useful but not scrummaging in any sense. They're simply a nod to the origins of the game and as much symbolic as owt else. Far from being a mess,scrums were an art form,populated by hard but skilfull men who would contort their bodies to win ball back while the opposition knocked seven bells out of you. Hookers like Clive Dickinson and Flash Flanagan were legendary and in the days before six tackles could win games by dominating possession,before I sound too misty eyed and nostalgic,I wouldn't want to go back to those days,the game has moved on,it's faster,more skilful and more entertaining for it. While always being a fan of Dickinson you couldn't in all honesty compare his skill level to a Mcshane or dare I say it Roby,but their roles are different neither would have prospered in the others generation,it's like comparing chalk to cheese. Never saw Dicko putting a deft kick through for someone to run on to,not sure Mcshane has ever hooked a ball in his life. Two players operating in different world's but still Cas legends in their own right.But only one of them could be called a hooker,the other has redefined the position.
Whilst I appreciate your view that scrums are a "joke", you have explained very well why they have changed and the result is a more open and faster game.

These days, the scrum is merely a way of restarting the game whilst giving priority to the team who didn't carry out the infringement. It means the ball is in and out very quickly to the attacking team whilst giving them a little more space to work with. Very little chance of the game being stopped for re-starts or indeed penalties (we call it Yawnion for a reason!).

It may not be the biff but I'd say it's a different kind of entertainment.
Totally agree,as I said,wouldn't want to go back to those days,today's game far faster and more open, players then and now play within the rules they are given,each require different skill sets,but I can appreciate both. It's true there were more penalties when scrums were contested but I never remember my enjoyment or excitement being affected, and the scrums never ever degenerated to the level we still see in Union. Must say having an intelligent discussion on this forum is a rarity. Thanks.
The quagmire like pitches we played in didn't help much either.

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Re: Scrums

Post by Spanishtiger » 20 Mar 2019, 23:42

I watched last week's saints v Hudds game with a couple of Irish sports fans who'd never had RL explained to them before. They were very impressed with the speed and cleanliness of the scrum, the defensive line speed and the finishing abilities of the three quarters.

If we were to market our SL games properly to people who understand the Yawnion, explain things in their terminology and be a bit more proactive we could easily pick up loads of extra fans in the medium term.

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Re: Scrums

Post by cogito ergo sum » 21 Mar 2019, 10:12

I agree. I watched Wales v Ireland on Saturday and how that can be called entertainment I don't know.
If you Sky+ a game and fast forward through the breaks, scrums etc, you can get through it during half time of a Super League match.

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Re: Scrums

Post by Squaddie86 » 21 Mar 2019, 10:46

Spanishtiger wrote:I watched last week's saints v Hudds game with a couple of Irish sports fans who'd never had RL explained to them before. They were very impressed with the speed and cleanliness of the scrum, the defensive line speed and the finishing abilities of the three quarters.

If we were to market our SL games properly to people who understand the Yawnion, explain things in their terminology and be a bit more proactive we could easily pick up loads of extra fans in the medium term.
Yeah... y'know how you call it Yawnion? I've seen others call it 'kick and clap' and any other number of derogatory names.

Well that same prejudice exists going the other way. Indeed those of you that know your RL history know how much effort Union has expended trying to stamp out RL.

There are fans to be made from those who love rugby, but don't expect a glut of "yawnion" fans who love rucks, mauls, lineouts and the intricacies of a complex games, to suddenly get amongst "touch and pass" with its 5 drives and a kick...

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Re: Scrums

Post by lurcher » 23 Mar 2019, 15:56

i remember when the rule was brought in to allow "feeding the scrum". ray tennant came to explain the seasons new rules to all the cas and district coaches (in the ship) some one asked ray why and he said "there are 23 different scrum infringements, i could form a scrum in the first minute and keep it there for the next 79. is that what you want to watch or do you want to see entertaining rugby." i think thats the only time i can remember ray tennant receiving applause.
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