Uk Citizen

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Uk Citizen

Post by Di » 08 May 2018, 10:12

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by Easy Tiger 2 » 08 May 2018, 16:13

Wow!I would of thought all 4 would benefit from having him in their side,England included.

Does this benefit us on the quota count then?

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by johnson » 08 May 2018, 20:36

Easy Tiger 2 wrote:Wow!I would of thought all 4 would benefit from having him in their side,England included.

Does this benefit us on the quota count then?

I would think it would because rangi and jake came off quota when they got citizenship as far as I can remember.
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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by takethetwo » 09 May 2018, 06:05

I thought Jakes was something to do with him already been in the country for so many years before the rule came into place . I honestly have no idea though , I just go with what you Hudds says , seems to know his stuff regarding these things .

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by Fumper27 » 09 May 2018, 06:19

takethetwo wrote:I thought Jakes was something to do with him already been in the country for so many years before the rule came into place . I honestly have no idea though , I just go with what you Hudds says , seems to know his stuff regarding these things .
That is correct. Jake was already playing in the UK when new rules came into force so he was therefore exempt.

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by HuddsTigers » 09 May 2018, 07:20

Jake Webster signed for KR in 2008 after the quota rules came in. He also counted on their quota. He didn’t have any dispensation. This was only for players signed 2007 and before and Celtic Crusaders players with their next contract but only to the next club. After that, they counted.

Link to article saying Webster was on quota:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... per-league
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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by lurcher » 09 May 2018, 16:30

welcome back hudds.
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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by nottinghamtiger » 09 May 2018, 16:54

HuddsTigers wrote:Jake Webster signed for KR in 2008 after the quota rules came in. He also counted on their quota. He didn’t have any dispensation. This was only for players signed 2007 and before and Celtic Crusaders players with their next contract but only to the next club. After that, they counted.

Link to article saying Webster was on quota:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... per-league
It changed again when the non-federation trained quota was altered again just after 2008.
All non-fed trained players who were already playing in the UK became exempt at this point. There aren’t many left, but Webster is one of them.
This year our non-fed quota is (or was!) Millington, Moors, Roberts, JSL, Clarke, Hitchcox and Lo. That’s the seven we are allowed.
Last year it was Millington, Moors, Roberts, JSL, Hitchcox, Chase and Monaghan.
Not Webster as he’s exempt. If he isn’t, we’ve been breaking the rules!

One of the major issues is that we have an ‘overlapping’ system. Clubs are allowed 5 ‘overseas’ players (which Millington was, but won’t be when he gets UK citizenship) and 7 ‘non-federation trained’ players. However, most overseas players will be non-fed trained too, so they count on both quotas.
At the moment our quotas are
Overseas - Millington, Hitchcox.
Non-fed trained - Millington, Hitchcox, Moors, Roberts, JSL, Clarke. We have one non-fed space available now Lo has left.

PS - welcome back Hudds.

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by HuddsTigers » 09 May 2018, 18:10

From what I recall, no changes have been made to the system since 2008. Here's an article on Hull's website from 2011 where it talks about it http://www.hullfc.com/news/2011-01-28-r ... ion-ruling

Essentially, and this is my understanding, all players pre-2008 when the federation trained, quota and non-fed trained statuses came in, were exempt forthwith.

This meant that anyone signed from 2008 counted. The system was scaled down from 2008, where you could have a maximum of 10 overseas players, of which only 5 could count on the quota. However, a quota player could count on both lists.

By 2011 this dropped down to a maximum of 5 quota/non-fed players. This has remained the same until it was increased to 7 in 2014 (see section B1 only viewable on Wayback Machine here. https://web.archive.org/web/20150906191 ... section=B1)

2014: Webster, Carney, Millington, Hauraki, Seymour (until he left);
Dorn exempt

2015 our quota/non-fed was:
Quota: Webster, Carney, Roberts, Millington, Moors, Solomona
Exempt: Dorn

2016: Monaghan, Solomona, Roberts, Moors, Hitchcox, Webster
Exempt: Dorn

2017: Millington, JSL, Roberts, Moors, Monaghan, Hitchcox and one of Webster/Chase
My feeling is that Chase was exempt here due to playing for England - bit unfair to have him as an England player and then call him an overseas player too. I'm not sure but I think he got a British passport too?

2018:

They've got rid of the two list system and it's now just only 7 overseas players total.

I presume Webster is now off-quota, however, it could be that Mitch Clark has got himself off being a British passport holder, English by birth, and having English parentage too. Could've been a reason for us signing him and for him to boost his chances of getting a deal in SL.

So our current list as it stands is: Hitchcox, Roberts, JSL, Moors, Millington* and one of Clark**, Webster**

*has to apply to the RFL board to be exempt
**Could be exempt already

2019 as it stands: Roberts, JSL, Moors, Clark/Webster, Millo. We could have 3 quota places to play with if Millo does get an exemption and Hitchcox's contract isn't renewed.

PS, thanks. I only jumped back on to this because the quota rules are as a muddy as hell. I just wish they'd publish a list every year to make it easy to understand.
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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by nottinghamtiger » 09 May 2018, 18:35

Webster signed for Hull KR before the rules came into force.
He had signed for them prior to the 2008 season.
He’s exempt.

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by HuddsTigers » 09 May 2018, 19:26

nottinghamtiger wrote:Webster signed for Hull KR before the rules came into force.
He had signed for them prior to the 2008 season.
He’s exempt.
I provided a news article three posts back in The Guardian where it states he was on Hull KR’s quota, my original post.
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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by Tigerade » 09 May 2018, 19:41

Welcome back Hudds. :D

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by Spanishtiger » 09 May 2018, 19:43

This was all researched and discussed in December or January. Notts is correct. Clarke was born in England. Lo, Roberts, Moors and JSL are Kolpak. But this only applies to the Overseas players quota, not the non-federation trained players quota which was introduced whilst Webster was at HKR. Players with ongoing contracts in 2008 were given exemptions from the non fed quota, something that Webster still benefits from, possibly the only one left ? Overseas players made redundant from Crusaders then later from London were given an exemption from the non-fed quota for the period of their next contract, Hanbury being the example which sparked all the research in the first place. Nice to hear from you Hudds !
Last edited by Spanishtiger on 09 May 2018, 19:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by nottinghamtiger » 09 May 2018, 19:44

HuddsTigers wrote:
nottinghamtiger wrote:Webster signed for Hull KR before the rules came into force.
He had signed for them prior to the 2008 season.
He’s exempt.
I provided a news article three posts back in The Guardian where it states he was on Hull KR’s quota, my original post.
It’s wrong.

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by Spanishtiger » 09 May 2018, 20:04

nottinghamtiger wrote:
HuddsTigers wrote:
nottinghamtiger wrote:Webster signed for Hull KR before the rules came into force.
He had signed for them prior to the 2008 season.
He’s exempt.
I provided a news article three posts back in The Guardian where it states he was on Hull KR’s quota, my original post.
It’s wrong.
Is it one of Callum's ??? :dance:

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by HuddsTigers » 09 May 2018, 20:10

I don’t think it is. The Hull Daily Mail reported the same. Rugby League forums have reported the same.

His contract was for the 2008 season, not 2007.

Here’s another link from the Daily Telegraph in Oz talking about Webster being on and them having to deregister Dobson to make way for big Willie. https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport ... b2df9b6d5e

Anyway, we are splitting hairs now. Both Webster and Millington should now, or be eligible, to be off quota in either scenario.
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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by nottinghamtiger » 09 May 2018, 20:20

HuddsTigers wrote:I don’t think it is. The Hull Daily Mail reported the same. Rugby League forums have reported the same.

His contract was for the 2008 season, not 2007.

Here’s another link from the Daily Telegraph in Oz talking about Webster being on and them having to deregister Dobson to make way for big Willie. https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport ... b2df9b6d5e

Anyway, we are splitting hairs now. Both Webster and Millington should now, or be eligible, to be off quota in either scenario.
You can’t come off the non-fed quota. If you’re non-federation trained, you’re non-federation trained. Only exceptions are those already playing SL when the rules came into force.
Webster signed for Hull KR on 30th August 2007. My understanding is that contracts signed before the new rules came into force at the start of the 2008 season meant players were exempt.
None of the others we had this year are exempt from the non-fed quota (Millington, Moors, JSL, Roberts, Hitchcox, Clark or Lo) so I’m pretty sure Webster is.
Maybe Hull KR didn’t apply for an exemption at the time as clubs were allowed 10 non-federation trained players? However, as the number has been reduced he has successfully applied to be exempt on the basis he signed a contract prior to the rule change.
Last edited by nottinghamtiger on 09 May 2018, 20:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by Spanishtiger » 09 May 2018, 20:24

Read that article again Hudds, it clearly says Overseas Quota and names 5 players, NOT non fed trained and 7 players. Anyone from a Pacific Island country is Kolpak qualified, therefore do not count on the overseas register although they do count on the non fed trained quota. So to simplify it, yes Jake figures in the Overseas quota but has never figured in the non fed quota due to his exemption for being contracted before they changed the rules. In all the time that he's been with us the Overseas quota hasn't been an issue due to kolpak and/or other exemptions.

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by nottinghamtiger » 09 May 2018, 20:37

Spanishtiger wrote:Read that article again Hudds, it clearly says Overseas Quota and names 5 players, NOT non fed trained and 7 players. Anyone from a Pacific Island country is Kolpak qualified, therefore do not count on the overseas register although they do count on the non fed trained quota. So to simplify it, yes Jake figures in the Overseas quota but has never figured in the non fed quota due to his exemption for being contracted before they changed the rules. In all the time that he's been with us the Overseas quota hasn't been an issue due to kolpak and/or other exemptions.
I think I’ve got it.
Jake’s mother is Greek. If he applied for Greek citizenship based on nationality at any point between 2008 and now, he will have come off the overseas quota. He may well have counted on the overseas quota when he arrived, but Greek (or UK) citizenship would mean he is now not counted on this.
Hudds - the articles your provided show he was on the overseas quota, not the non-fed quota. He was counted on the overseas quota, but for the reasons above he now isn’t.
As already explained, he’s exempt from the non-fed quota due to signing a contract before the rules changed.

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Re: Uk Citizen

Post by HuddsTigers » 09 May 2018, 21:11

Spanishtiger wrote:Read that article again Hudds, it clearly says Overseas Quota and names 5 players, NOT non fed trained and 7 players. Anyone from a Pacific Island country is Kolpak qualified, therefore do not count on the overseas register although they do count on the non fed trained quota. So to simplify it, yes Jake figures in the Overseas quota but has never figured in the non fed quota due to his exemption for being contracted before they changed the rules. In all the time that he's been with us the Overseas quota hasn't been an issue due to kolpak and/or other exemptions.

And if you read my post before, I’ve explained how it changed over the years.

The rules were 10 overseas players, of which 5 were quota. Quota being NZ/Oz, overseas being Kolpak.

Webster will have been both quota and non-fed. As a New Zealander he counted on both. These were gradually reduced until you could only have a max of 5 overseas players/quota players. You could therefore have 5 quota, 0 non-fed, 4 quota, 1 non fed or 5 non fed if you wanted.

It was increased in 2014 to 7 overseas players, of which 5 could be quota. This has since been changed this season to just 7 overseas players.
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